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Pioneer PL-518 or Dual 721??

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go with the pioneer you will have less to worry about I think the japs made better production tables IMO. I have a pl-51a and it sounds great.
 
Both very good turntables. I'm not a Dual expert, but I can point out differences that may affect your decision. If, like other members, you plan on swapping out cartridges depending on mood or for experimentation, the headshells for the Dual are expensive and hard to find. The Pioneer uses an inexpensive, universal headshell.

The Pioneer is manual, while the Dual is fully automatic, so more to go wrong, and many automatic Duals require servicing after sitting for years, but that may be mostly the changers. Being direct drive, I don't know if that's the case with this one.
 
IMHO, I feel that the Dual's tonearm will blow the Pioneer's out of the water. And you only need the headshell it comes with to enjoy it.

hakaplan implies that automatic is a BAD thing. I completely disagree. Look for the thread of the member that left his manual table running for (I think) a week.

He's right about the potential for more need for service, but Duals tend to be very reliable (as do Pioneer).
 
I dont think hes saying automatic is bad, just that their is more potential for problems because theirs more moving parts, something I do agree with. The Pioneer is closer to me, and I know its been in use.
 
Aage said:
IMHO, I feel that the Dual's tonearm will blow the Pioneer's out of the water. And you only need the headshell it comes with to enjoy it.

hakaplan implies that automatic is a BAD thing. I completely disagree. Look for the thread of the member that left his manual table running for (I think) a week.

He's right about the potential for more need for service, but Duals tend to be very reliable (as do Pioneer).
Click to expand...
No, all of my turntables are either full auto or auto-return. As digitalblues said, I was only pointing out differences between the two tables and that there is more potential for problems with specifically Dual, based on the need after many years for full rehab on the changers. The DD Duals came later and may not be as complex or as susceptible to those problems. In my experience, mechanical Japanese autos seldom need work, and if they do it's usually a straightforward DIY fix. As for the headshells, yes, you only need one to enjoy it, but most members here go beyond mere enjoyment. It becomes an obsession. And for those people, you can't have too many cartridges.
 
I have the 721 and it is a very nice TT. There's a Dual poster here from Munich that holds these in quite high regard. The VTA is extremely easy to adjust, merely turn a little knob IIRC.


Bohhey has mentioned a few little problem areas with the 721 but so far mine's been reliable.
 
I'm real excited about this debate because coincidentally I am waiting on a PL-518 as well as a Dual 650-RC (full auto w/ ULM tonearm) that I just won on online auctions. The spouse will only let me keep one, so I'll have to decide between the 2. The Pioneer is the less risky choice, and I like the idea of easily swapping cartridges.

The Dual intrigues me (it has the original ULM55E Ortofon cart and I have a new stylus on order) because it was more of a high-end table when new, but without the hard-to-find adapter kit I'm going to have to really like the stock cartridge setup.

Both tables should be here by the end of the week, so I'll try and post photos and my impressions of the two (assuming, of course, that they arrive undamaged and I can get them up and running with relatively few glitches).
 
Yup, the CS721 was a really nice dd table, stock cart was the Shure V15III. It was Dual's top model from 1977 to late 1979, when the successor CS731Q was introduced - for myself, I'd prefer the CS721, though (especially the first generation with the nicer looking platter). In any case, it certainly belongs to the best Dual's ever made. But there sure might be a problem here and there - e.g. the Steuerpimpel (should be part #235 in the service manual) might need replacing, the contacts for the strobe light might need some cleaning (if the lamp ain't dead anyway - but Dualfred over here might still offer led replacements for that...). And you should definitely provide detailed packing instructions, if you don't want to end up with a broken mess, and be it only the pretty sophisticated anti-resonator counterweight...

I don't know the PL-518 (other than from pics), but from gut feeling alone I'd give the CS721 a 70 % chance to smoke the Pioneer, if both are in good working condition.

R_G: The CS650-RC is a nice dd model as well - especially if it comes with the remote control and receiver unit. I'm just not so fond of the proprietary ULM mount...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
I have a PL518 and a Dual 1264 and they are both great. The Pioneer is as quiet as any direct drive table I have ever heard and quieter than some belt drives. Speed is very reliable. I think the Dual has a better sense of timing and pace, and has a slightly more coherent sound. Good choice either way.
 
brickbuster said:
I don't know why people like those clunky duals do they really sound that good ?
Click to expand...

I've got 3 idler-wheel Duals and the direct-drive 721. Even my ancient 1009, from the early 60's, sounds pretty darn good. With a decent rubber wheel, and proper lubrication/service, "those clunky duals" still deliver quite nicely.
 
I'd go with the Pioneer. I haven't had much luck with Duals. They're wonderful when they're working, but they seem to be a lot like british sports cars... finicky and fussy, and they don't take much rough handling.

The PL-518 is a fine table that can be made quite beautiful with a re-veneer job--other AK'ers have redone them in nice wood veneers and they're quite striking then. New feet help a lot also, chances are the stock feet have deteriorated if in fact they are still present.
 
Blue Meanie said:
It's been a few years since I owned one, but I recall the PL-518 being semi-auto, not full manual.:scratch2:
Click to expand...

I owned a PL-518 for several years. Mine was fully manual. Then one day the return system healed itself, and it became auto return! The wood base is rather massive.

The original isolation feet on them don't last. Mine had none.

It's only two speed. If you want three, many Duals have at least 3. I don't happen to know whether the Dual you mentioned is. It is easy to look up.

My main machine now is a Dual 1229, which I am restoring, since it had a lot of problems when I got it. Now it's almost good in the automatics, and sounding great. I don't use the changer spindle though. It has a bit better cartridge on it than I had on the PL-518, which helps it sound dramatically better than it did. And when I have a second cartridge carrier (arriving soon) I'll be able to switch to playing 78s at anytime, too. I have jettisoned a number of spare turntables since getting the Dual.
 
No I have not had the pleasure of pulling my hair out with that particular model dual. But if the price is right I would probably buy one if it came to me, but I will not go out of my way to buy one. Are those Duals considerd HI-FI.Iknow with some of the eailer vntage more like antique equipment alot of the tt's are far from HI-FI, I just got rid of a old PE 3015 man what a headache , never got it working , it would just spin and keep on cycling , plus the counter weight was very sloppy , and i could go on.
 
My theory on quality, You know how a mercedes(dual) car is built like a tank but when something breaks down it's gonna cost you , now on the other hand you have a HONDA(PIONEER) that will probably last forever with no problems. What are you going to buy a fancy headache or a decent symptom free table?I will not bring thorens in this because I hear nothing but good things about them.
 
Well, today must be my lucky day-not only did my Garrard suddenly start working properly (one side was shorting out), but my in-laws bought us one of those USB turntables. Must set that up and give it a listen before buying another potential headache.
 
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