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Pioneer RT-909 Trouble

I don't remember our work on your deck, but that can be explained by my age-related cognitive degeneration :smoke:. In any case, you are welcome.

Rich P

It wasn't so much hands on, why's this etc., more steering me in the right direction and the order of doing things thru you rebuild thread.:thmbsp:

David
 
It wasn't so much hands on, why's this etc., more steering me in the right direction and the order of doing things thru you rebuild thread.:thmbsp:

David
Cool. That is why I do those threads. I have one coming on the RT-707, if I can ever get my nose above water...

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
OK, found 2 other soldering irons. Guessing that the orange one is going to be the best.

If not today, I will definitely begin testing components tomorrow.
 

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Looks better.

Heat the iron, and clean the tip with a brand new bronze sponge. Add some solder, clean it again, until it looks shiny.

Keep the sponge to clean it while you work. Always apply solder with a clean tip.
 
OK, found 2 other soldering irons. Guessing that the orange one is going to be the best.

If not today, I will definitely begin testing components tomorrow.
Agreed. The orange one will do in a pinch. Not optimal but better than what you had.

This is the kind of tip I use for most work: http://www.arcade-electronics.com/Weller-PTL7-p/wel-ptl7.htm. It is called a long screwdriver tip, and the number after the tip code is the heat setting. The tip shape is PTL, and the heat I use is 8. It is pretty hot, but you can compensate by getting in and out quicker. I do not know what tip model that would correspond to for your iron. That will be an exercise for the student.

This stand would work handily, and comes with the required sponge: http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-060842...=1431149337&sr=8-1&keywords=solder+iron+stand. Verify the dimensions before you buy, to make sure your soldering iron will fit in. New soldering sponges come flat, and fill out when water is applied. You want to have them moist, but not dripping wet. It might be a good idea to have a small fan to pull the solder fumes away from your face, so you don't breath them.

This is the solder wick that is pretty much optimal for this kind of work (not too small, not to big): http://www.amazon.com/Chemtronics-S...&qid=1431149864&sr=8-8&keywords=soder-wick+#2

This should be decent solder sucker. Mine is a bit more expensive, so I recommend this one: http://www.amazon.com/Edsyn-Soldapu...TF8&qid=1431150228&sr=8-7&keywords=soldapullt

Here is the kind of thing you need for eye protection. Like mine, these have reading glass inserts at the bottom of each lens. You will need to choose a model with the right diopter, or without the magnifier portion if not needed: http://www.amazon.com/BKH20-Magnifi...150377&sr=8-2&keywords=bearkat+safety+glasses

This is the sort of alcohol you will need to keep the area that you rework clean: http://www.amazon.com/Techspray-161...=1431150616&sr=8-4&keywords=techspray+alcohol Grocery store alcohol has too much water in it, and other things not good for pcb cleaning.

This is the sort of dispenser you need for the alcohol. push down on the top and it pulls the liquid up for your use, while keeping the contents of the bottle clean and uncontaminated: http://www.amazon.com/WAWO-Remover-...d=1431151691&sr=8-6&keywords=liquid+dispenser

I know that initial overhead is on the pricey side, but it is much cheaper than paying a local tech $50-$75 per hour. Also, one should not be ill-equipped to do the kind of work we will be performing.

Delicacy, accuracy, precision, diligence, patience are keys to the kingdom. Double and triple check as you go, especially before application of power.

This piece of gear is well worth the investment: http://www.amazon.com/Peak-dca55-At...?ie=UTF8&qid=1431151054&sr=8-1&keywords=DCA55. I will not require that you get it, but you would be glad you did. You could put it up in Bartertown and someone would be glad to have it, when you are done. It goes a lot further than you can with a multimeter toward verifying the operational state of transistors and diodes (and much more), as well as identifying/verifying component pin-outs (automatically). It is not the panacea for modern man, but for the buck, you get a lot of bang.

This is the kind of solder I recommend for the work we will be doing: http://www.amazon.com/Kester-solder...&qid=1431154786&sr=8-1&keywords=sn60pb40+.031. It has the correct blend of metals, the correct type of flux in the core, and is 0.031" in diameter, the correct size for circuit board work.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
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Now a word about de-soldering technique:

Heat a pad. When molten, rock the part so that the lead in that hole moves toward the "coming out" direction. Hold the part there until the solder solidifies again. Heat another pad, do the same. Repeat on all pads and leads, a little movement at a time, until the part comes free. Hold the part near where it came out, and verify that the markings on the circuit board and part orientation agree. If not, we have some more investigating to do, to determine which is correct. I've seen it go both ways. Then go back with the solder sucker and clean the old solder out of the holes. Use the solder wick only if needed. Clean the area with the toothbrush and alcohol.

If you try to remove all the solder, to free the component, you will risk damaging the part and the circuit pad on the board (bad mojo).

Putting parts back in:

Insert the part, first verifying pin-out and correct location and orientation. Apply the soldering tip to contact both lead and circuit pad. Now touch the solder also to touch both lead and pad. That is the reason for the fine, chisel/screwdriver soldering tip shape. Apply only as much solder as necessary to make a nice concave shaped fillet. "The bigger the blob the better the job" is for the ham-handed. If your tip does not adequately contact both lead and pad, it is too big or incorrectly shaped. Bite the bullet and get a better tip and/or iron. The recommended chisel shape is to increase contact area between pad and tip and lead and tip, to get quick heating. You want to get in and out as quickly as you can and still do a good job (minimize the heat stress on the part and circuit board).

Do not allow a component lead to move while the joint is cooling and solidifying. If the lead moves while the solder is in an intermediate state you will have a bad joint. Re-melt and do it again.

Examine the joint with a 10x magnifier of some kind. I use a jeweler's loupe. Ensure that the solder smoothly "wetted" the component lead and pad. If the solder looks like it beaded up on the lead or pad, you will have a bad connection. There should be a YouTube video on the subject, with magnified results, good and bad. It will be an exercise for the student to locate it.

Make sure that the lead and pad were the only places that the solder went. Solder bridges (shorts) are very hard to locate in troubleshooting. Prevent them as you go.

Clean the area you just worked on, with an old toothbrush and high purity alcohol (see previous post). Reexamine for good joints and no solder bridges or other shorts.

Important: Make sure you are using resin core solder, and not acid core. Acid-type flux is not suited for electronics work. It is corrosive and will damage components and circuit boards. Resin flux is also mildly corrosive, but that is over long periods of time. Make sure you clean that all off with the alcohol and toothbrush.

You can also get shorts from fibers from the solder wick. Wick should only be applied and removed when the solder is molten. If you wait until the solder solidifies, you will pull out tiny fibers from the wick. They will go to the worst possible places.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
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OK, I have the stand, sponge, and alcohol already.

I think I have the screwdriver tip for this iron somewhere. If not, I found it online, and will get it. (http://www.amazon.com/WELLER-SOLDER...er+Marksman+Replace+Tip+for+SP23+&+SP23D+Iron)

As for eye protection, I wear a pair of lab goggles while I'm working. Had a large, heat damaged electrolytic cap explode on me during removal years ago, and I still have the scar. It missed my eyes, at least!

For solder, I have (AFAIK) 100% lead, non-fluxed solder in that diameter. I use a jar of rosin flux with this.
Will this be OK?

As for desoldering, I heat the pads and move the part until it comes off. I remove solder using homemade desoldering wick (fine braided copper wire and flux). I'm usually left with a clean, tinned pad.
Is using this "wick" bad?

If necessary, I will buy the proper tools/supplies.
 
Measurements taken with diode oriented as on board:

D228:
574mV from middle (-) to top (+)
576mV from middle (-) to bottom (+)
open from top to bottom (either polarity)
open with (+) on center lead to (-) on top or bottom

D229:
561mV from middle (+) to top (-)
574mV from middle (+) to bottom (-)
open from top to bottom (either polarity)
open with (-) on center to (+) on top or bottom

Should I begin testing Q210, Q212, Q214, Q245, and D222?
 
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Solid core, all lead solder is not appropriate for this kind of work. You want 60% tin, 40% lead, with a rosin core. Flux deposits in the right amount as you go, and the solder wets as it should. The recommended diameter is optimal but not required. The composition and core is what is important. Better get a spool anyway, since this stuff is on its way out of the world. Lead free is what the world wants now, but that has its own box of surprises.

I would get the proper supplies. As the sages have stated: "There is a long short way and a short long way." The meaning is that there is a way that appears to be short and is expedient. But, in the end, it winds up being the long way. That which appeared to be the long way turns out to be the shortest way, in the end.

Solder wick is impregnated with an appropriate amount of flux, and is designed for maximum wicking action, as is needed for minimum heating time. As previously stated, a solder sucker is the primary tool for the job. Solder wick is used only when needed. If you spend too much time on a circuit pad, it will lift off of the board and you will need to do repair and work-arounds. Minimal heating time and minimal physical stress on the pads. It is good that you remove the part, then clean out the old solder. The key is to be as brief as you can with the heat, yet still being effective.

Enjoy,
Rich P

OK, I have the stand, sponge, and alcohol already.

I think I have the screwdriver tip for this iron somewhere. If not, I found it online, and will get it. (http://www.amazon.com/WELLER-SOLDER...er+Marksman+Replace+Tip+for+SP23+&+SP23D+Iron)

As for eye protection, I wear a pair of lab goggles while I'm working. Had a large, heat damaged electrolytic cap explode on me during removal years ago, and I still have the scar. It missed my eyes, at least!

For solder, I have (AFAIK) 100% lead, non-fluxed solder in that diameter. I use a jar of rosin flux with this.
Will this be OK?

As for desoldering, I heat the pads and move the part until it comes off. I remove solder using homemade desoldering wick (fine braided copper wire and flux). I'm usually left with a clean, tinned pad.
Is using this "wick" bad?

If necessary, I will buy the proper tools/supplies.
 
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Measurements taken with diode oriented as on board:

D228:
574mV from middle (-) to top (+)
576mV from middle (-) to bottom (+)
open from top to bottom (either polarity)
open with (+) on center lead to (-) on top or bottom

D229:
561mV from middle (+) to top (-)
574mV from middle (+) to bottom (-)
open from top to bottom (either polarity)
open with (-) on center to (+) on top or bottom

Should I begin testing Q210, Q212, Q214, Q245, and D222?
First, keep in mind that I do not have an RT-909 open before me. So your responses should be appropriately descriptive. In fact I haven't had one open before me for over 2 years.

Next, for semiconductor measurements, the polarity of the measurement should be explicitly stated (i.e., red or + to pin x, black or - to pin y, etc.) You don't need to specify color AND polarity, one or the other is sufficient, but I do need an indication of polarity in your recorded measurements. In diode test mode, meters supply positive polarity via the red lead and negative polarity via the black one. Please go back and edit you previous response post with that additional information.

Here is what a measurement should look like: 574mV from middle (+) to top (-)

Please note that a semiconductor can pass a diode test, yet still be bad. The power-on tests will give us additional information on the functionality of the components in view. That semiconductor tester I recommended would go significantly farther in detecting bad parts. We can make do for now.

I am sufficiently convinced that the rectifiers, D228 and D229 are not shorted. I do want to see the polarity update to your previous post (I will then update the above quote of your post). It is critical that those parts go back in, in the proper locations, because they are not the same part, one is inverted from the other. The S3VC10R goes into the D229 spot. In future, in case you are not already doing it this way, remove, test, and reinstall one part at a time.

Here are the parts to remove and test, as you stated, plus two more: Q210, D222, Q212, Q245, Q214, D223, ZD201. If any other parts have been removed/changed in this area, please list in detail which ones they are/were. Inspect the areas for shorts, circuit damage, broken wires, damaged components and report those as well.

Report back the out-of-circuit component test measurements and we will do the in-circuit functional test steps in a future iteration (do not apply power until instructed to from here). Measure and report between each pair of component leads (+ to -, then - to +). Don't be overly concerned if you see a single diode drop from collector to emitter, in one direction, with Q214. That part has a protection diode, across those 2 points, that is not shown on the displayed schematic symbol. It should show an "open" in the other direction.

I have a bit of concern, regarding ZD201. That is, I think I remember, that you had that part installed in the D223 position. I do not know, off hand, if it was designed for the forward current it would have seen in that position. The diode test will tell us part of what we want to know, then the brief power on tests, later, will tell us the rest, about that component. If it, instead, was the D223 part installed in the ZD201 position, you would have had excessive voltage on the output of the regulator, which would likely have overheated and damaged or destroyed the circuitry on the capstan motor board (D21, then IC21). Then, the transistors in the H-bridge could have been damaged or taken out. That could explain why you had heat and smell but the unit worked for a while before dying again. We will look at those components and circuit functions later.

The same excessive regulator voltage would have been produced if the unit had been powered up without ZD201 in place. Excessive conditions can be tolerated only very briefly, if at all. Hence, the manner in which we will conduct the next few tests (hang the leads for measuring a node, power up, take the reading and immediately power back down, terminating further testing upon detection of failure, until that failure has been corrected or localized.

Please note that this thread will be preserved and available for others with similar problems in the future. You are helping more that your own machine here. That is the value of a thread like this.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
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The replacement ZD-201 was accidentally installed as D223. The actual D223, was put back in, and the original ZD-201 was closed in both directions. The incorrectly installed replacement tested fine, and was placed in the correct location. The solder bridge was removed at this time, and the unit functioned. Turning it off, and back on, the reel motors were stuck running foreword, and the counter wasn't lit. This was also what happened after replacing the faulty Q245 and Q214, and improperly installing the zener (solder bridge was present).

Test results are:

Q245:
696mV from base (+) to collector (-)
705mV from base (+) to emitter (-)
open from emitter to collector (either polarity)
open from base (-) to emitter and collector (+)

Q214:
666mV from base (+) to collector (-)
880mV from base (+) to emitter (-)
581mV from emitter (+) to collector (-)
open from emitter (-) to collector (+)
open from base (-) to emitter and collector (+)

D223 is cracked in two. Would the 1N4003 be a good replacement?

ZD201:
773mV from cathode (-) to anode (+)
open from anode (-) to cathode (+)

Q212:
627mV from base (-) to collector (+)
630mV from base (-) to emitter (+)
open from emitter to collector (either polarity)
open from base (+) to collector and emitter (-)

Q210:
630mV from base (-) to collector (+)
633mV from base (-) to emitter (+)
open from collector to emitter (either polarity)
open from base (+) to emitter and collector (-)

D222:
589mV from anode (-) to cathode (+)
open from anode (+) to cathode (-)
 
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The replacement ZD-201 was accidentally installed as D223. The actual D223, was put back in, and the original ZD-201 was closed in both directions. The incorrectly installed replacement tested fine, and was placed in the correct location. The solder bridge was removed at this time, and the unit functioned. Turning it off, and back on, the reel motors were stuck running foreword, and the counter wasn't lit. This was also what happened after replacing the faulty Q245 and Q214, and improperly installing the zener (solder bridge was present).

Test results are:

Q245:
696mV from base (+) to collector (-)
705mV from base (+) to emitter (-)
open from emitter to collector (either polarity)
open from base (-) to emitter and collector (+)

Q214:
666mV from base (+) to collector (-)
880mV from base (+) to emitter (-)
581mV from emitter (+) to collector (-)
open from emitter (-) to collector (+)
open from base (-) to emitter and collector (+)

D223 is cracked in two. Would the 1N4003 be a good replacement?

ZD201:
773mV from cathode (-) to anode (+)
open from anode (-) to cathode (+)

Q212:
627mV from base (-) to collector (+)
630mV from base (-) to emitter (+)
open from emitter to collector (either polarity)
open from base (+) to collector and emitter (-)

Q210:
630mV from base (-) to collector (+)
633mV from base (-) to emitter (+)
open from collector to emitter (either polarity)
open from base (+) to emitter and collector (-)

D222:
589mV from anode (-) to cathode (+)
open from anode (+) to cathode (-)

I found a pack of rectifier diodes rated at 200v, 1A.
Will this work for D223
Off hand, I would say that you could use the 200v, 1A rectifier diodes for the D223 position, but please go back and edit the previous post to include the part number, just to be sure. Also, a 1N4003 would also do.

Now, all the parts measured, above, "appear" OK, except the failed D223. Enough current went through there to thermally damage it, unless it was damaged by physical abuse during removal and re-installation operations. We will default to over-current as the cause.

The current that took out D223 had to take some path. Once we are done making her work, I suggest that we replace each part in the most likely path, even if they are recently purchased, since thermally overstressed parts can bite you later. we will do that later, unless power-on testing reveals the need to do it sooner.

Now, for the sake of being comprehensive, lets test Q211, D221, Q213, and, especially, Q22 and D21 (on the capstan motor motor board).

Inspect the capstan motor board for any negative indications.

Also, note connection polarity and disconnect the capstan motor. Smell it very carefully. Don't open it (we may have to later, but not now). Any hint of the smell of overheating will be cause for the need to replace it (we can't do anything with overheated windings). Based on what I have seen so far, the motor will probably be OK. Check it for freedom of rotation with your fingers. If it feels OK, use a 9v battery and electrically test the the capstan motor. Verify its ability to drive in both directions. The voltage and current potential of the battery will be a bit low, so motor torque will be a bit on the slim side. That is OK.

If the motor appears OK, let's clean/lube its bushings. Use the telephone and locate some "Tri-Flow" lubricant (hardware or auto parts stores, etc.). It comes in a spray can, and really should be the stuff you use. It has P.T.F.E (teflon) in it. Spray some in the can lid and use a wooden toothpick (feather the end of the toothpick to make a kind of brush) to dip drops of the lube into the bushings at each end of the motor. Spin the motor for a while, both directions, with your fingers. If all still appears well, re-install the motor (be careful with polarity).

Post your component and motor findings/results/observations. We will perform some power-on tests in the next iteration. I will post the instructions for those, again, just to localize the instructions and results.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
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The diode is a HEP 156.
When tested, there is 599mV from anode (+) to cathode (-), anode (-) to cathode (+) is open.
I can't locate a datasheet for the HEP 156 diode. If you have the 1N4003, use that. If not, quote me the specs from the HEP 156 package.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
Specs from package:

PIV - 200v
RMS input - up to 140v
Average rectified forward current - 1000mA at 75C, 750mA at 100C
Peak forward current - 30A (1/2 cycle surge, 60Hz, 25C), 10A recurrent
max temp - 175C
 
Specs from package:

PIV - 200v
RMS input - up to 140v
Average rectified forward current - 1000mA at 75C, 750mA at 100C
Peak forward current - 30A (1/2 cycle surge, 60Hz, 25C), 10A recurrent
max temp - 175C
It looks sufficient. Use it, at least for now.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
I will install it, and test those other components. My schedule is a bit hectic this week, so I might not get to it until the weekend. With a little luck, I'll have some time to work on it before then.

Forgot to mention before, but the diode snapped while I was removing it.

I also have to get replacement fuses. (my luck, I have every rating but what I need! :rolleyes:)
 
I will install it, and test those other components. My schedule is a bit hectic this week, so I might not get to it until the weekend. With a little luck, I'll have some time to work on it before then.

Forgot to mention before, but the diode snapped while I was removing it.

I also have to get replacement fuses. (my luck, I have every rating but what I need! :rolleyes:)
I am not in a hurry. What is important is that we are successful.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
Here are the test results:

Control B:
Q213:
610mV from base (-) to collector (+)
614mV from base (-) to emitter (+)
open from collector to emitter (either polarity)
open from base (+) to collector and emitter (-)

Q211:
628mV from base (-) to collector (+)
635mV from base (-) to emitter (-)
open from collector to emitter (either polarity)
open from base (+) to collector and emitter (-)

D221:
585 from cathode (-) to anode (+)
open from cathode (+) to anode (-)

Capstan board:
Q22:
543mV from base (+) to collector (-)
551mV from base (+) to emitter (-)
open from collector to emitter (either polarity)
open from base (-) to collector and emitter (+)

ZD21:
829mV from cathode (-) to anode (+)
open from cathode (+) to anode (-)

The capstan motor turns smoothly by hand, and runs in both directions off a 9v battery.

I have installed the HEP 156 for D223.

Still have to get fuses, though.
Local hardware store had the 2A, 125v fuses for FU5, but not the 4A ,125v for FU4.
 
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