OBSerious
Member
Thanks Duane!
Prepping a Russco turntable..
- Thread starter MisterDK
- Start date
adnick
Addicted Member
Jason,
First one wonders @twiiii motive(s), since you’re already working on the table, it’s beyond just “Thread Crapping” it’s actually project crapping and table bashing….historically @twiiii generally bashes idler drives and it’s always redundant. The worse part, it’s impolite, rude and uncalled for….
Given his statement it makes one wonder why, that table being so atrocious and requiring such equipment modification and maintenance, why buy them or why not replace them? During that period there were much cheaper tables, Russco’s/QRK were very expensive, and there were lots of optional tables and drive types that fit the general requirements, but obviously the Russco’s were very prevalent in broadcast application. Not sure most people would ever notice any of the stated issues given the LPs noise floor; it was the cost of a Russco that killed it, not performance….
Regardless of the above, the Russco’s can be improved over stock for the discriminating table owner. Modern materials, like Derlin idlers, and grub screw pads (thanks to @BillWojo) improve W/F and reduce any rumble. Plus the design & construction concepts have greatly improved plinths for all types of tables, but most important improvements have been applied to idler plinths.
Congrats on the fine table, there’s lots of possible modifications, most can be found somewhere on AK with a bit of research, but it’s a very nice table when brought back to stock standards.
Enjoy your project and take comfort in the fact that if taken care of that table will still function for your children’s children.
VR
Andy
OBSerious
Member
Hey Andy,
Thanks for the post. I have read up a bit on Russcos over the years and have lusted after them for reasons that are far from rational and likely are tied to some feelings of male inadequacy... or so my shrink tells me
In all seriousness I have heard of the improvements that you mentioned and after I get the Mikrotrak TA squared away, the new idler installed and replace the caps (thanks again guys for the schematics) I plan on looking into the grub screw. As for @twiii's comments, thanks for "having my back" but I took no offense. I am stubborn to a fault and have fought battles on other boards over similar eccentricities like open baffle speakers and passive preamps as well as my aforementioned obsession with field coil drivers. In every case I ended up with a system that left me at times speechless. I am very grateful to have received so much help from everyone here, over a holiday weekend no less! Thanks again, J
adnick
Addicted Member
Hey Andy,
Thanks for the post. I have read up a bit on Russcos over the years and have lusted after them for reasons that are far from rational and likely are tied to some feelings of male inadequacy... or so my shrink tells me
Jason:
No problem…. actually the overall point(s) was to highlight his appalling recurring behavior and to defend Russco’s (and variants) as viable turntable options. Just don’t understand bashing anyone’s current project, it may be all they have….
There’s plenty of used robust turntables for the individual with a few mechanical skills, that can be brought back to form and/or exceed original performance numbers with a few updates. Moreover they’ll easily last another 50 years if taken care of, not to mention their esthetic cool factor (-;
Some of us have the good fortune to own multiple types of tables, even some “end game” examples, so why belittle another’s project. We all have and defend our favorite tables, old and new, nothing wrong with that in the right environment, some drive specific, some brand specific, some tinker, some don’t, it’s what makes the AK turntable forum diverse and informative.
Plus there’s always those that read these posts, never directly reply, but may take the discussion as dogmatic truth….
VR
Andy
Edit: BTW I’d encourage you to start a new project thread, it’ll get more exposure, and will probably benefit another enthusiast….
Roger Gorke
Well-Known Member
Hey Andy,The base for that particular arm has a hole for the tonearm wires…..if the arm has external wires and there’s no hole in the base, I’ve always ran the wires to an RCA pod or mount.
Couple of home made examples and one Cardas solution :
the one behind the wood banana arm is just plexiglass& wood
The bright metal one gets mounted under the edge
The Cardas black box is excellent, just a bit more costly
View attachment 2979805View attachment 2979806View attachment 2979809
I realize this is an older post but...
With your studio pro, how thick is your tone arm cover? It looks a bit thicker than a "stock" one. How high is your platter from the top of the base where the selector is? You has suggested previously that adjusting the height of the platter vis a vis the relationship to where the idler runs on the inside of the platter had a positive impact on rumble.
In the Cardas Black Box, is the ground wire connected to one of the channels or am I missing something?
And finally, is that a Garrard 301 peaking into the last picture? If so, how does the motor and idler noise compare to the Russcos?
adnick
Addicted Member
Roger:
Yeah my Russco’s arm board is about 3/8” thick, found wood much quieter than the aluminum one; had planned on making a layered board but haven’t got around to it.
Platter height adjustment did make a difference also, but it was done by trial and error, and each variable ( grub screw, idler and motor type & probably idler bracket material) may alter individual results?
Wish I had a Cardas black box for every tonearm that needs one, but alas they are expensive….can’t recall but believe it’s just a box ground, could be wrong about that I’d have to check…
That’s my Ivory rimless grease bearing 301, in stock form it’s the quietest idler I’ve ever encountered….it’s been upgraded with the new Classic Turntable Company bearing assembly that’s made to support a 27 lb platter. Don’t have that platter but do run a copper mat & 7lb copper/brass weight, and the speed is controlled via a Hz & voltage adjustable power supply. I’ve found that a power supply that allows for the adjustment of Hz and voltage is also effective with other tables like the Russco’s.
Not really fair to compare my Russco & Garrard….I’d say my modified Russco is equivalent to a well performing stock TD124, the Studio Pro might have a bit more punch or slam than a stock TD124 ((depending on definition & SQ awareness))
Here’s my 301
Andy
flavio81
Turntable technician
I'm very interested in this comparison, being an owner of a Lenco L75 and a PL-41 as well.
I saw you put some "wow " figures from a cellphone app and in my experience they were way, way too high for an idler wheel turntable of such mass. I recall the lowest one (2-sigma wow figure) was about 0.23%, that's too high, even cheap belt turntables can manage that.
Remember than when using a cellphone to do this measurement the mass of the cellphone will intrude into the measurement if the cellphone mass is not perfectly centered over the spindle. Thus, you need to measure many times.
I will give you some figures I've got with my cellphone, so you can make yourself an idea of what to expect:
An used Rega RP1 --let's classify this under "toy belt drive" ---, got 0.21% wow (2-sigma)
Sony PS-2310 belt drive, serviced, about 0.11%, which is in my view the minimum performance you should achieve to be sure it is not intruding into the music.
Pioneer PL-41 high quality belt drive, serviced, got 0.06%
Sony PS-2500 direct drive, 0.04%
Most idler wheel drives, once properly serviced, get 0.06% or less.
IMO your Russco should achieve 0.07% or less.
adnick
Addicted Member
Said this before, but it’s worth saying again, W&F should be done with the needle dropped, and by an actual W&F test, not a phone app….arm down with a “good” test record is the only way to know actual results and anti skate ( or lack thereof) will affect the results.
Phone apps can be helpful testing a table against itself but not against another table… With my old W&F testing machine the numbers are sometimes grossly off between a phone app and the tester, and it seems to be motor type—but that’s an observation, not a big enough sample size to say definitively.
Andy
MisterDK
Addicted Member
And you know what?
The poor w&f numbers my phone app shows for the Russco don’t matter much to me; it still sounds quite good! Maybe I’m just not fussy enough but I’ll try to improve them some.
I still have other projects in the way but I’ll be playing with the Russco again soon. It’s a fun table to use!
flavio81
Turntable technician
Yes and no...
The actual W&F of the record playback you can only determine using an actual W&F with a record. This is true.
However such test includes the following variables:
a) platter stability/wow and flutter
b) cartridge compliance, cartridge compliance Q, and good matching/bad matching to the tonearm -- mismatches WILL introduce flutter (!)
c) tonearm design and its potential for low flutter (the position of the bearings and counterweight, for example, influence this).
As a turntable technician, i need to isolate (a) from (b and c). The cellphone app is excellent for this.
Of course the big problem with the cellphone app is that the mass of the phone itself is an off-center mass that creates wow, and the effects of this mass can be negligible (on servo controlled direct drive turntables) or enormously severe (i.e. on belt drive turntables with weak motors). So yes, it is not an easy method to use, however, with care it is an useful tool to have some idea if your TT is improving or not, and yes, you can sort-of compare with other turntables, as long as you understand that the phone mass itself is going to skew the reading, thus you are also measuring how resilient is the motor drive against an unbalanced weight over the platter.
Of course, because of the issues i am mentioning on the previous paragraphs.
flavio81
Turntable technician
The poor w&f numbers my phone app shows for the Russco don’t matter much to me; it still sounds quite good! Maybe I’m just not fussy enough but I’ll try to improve them some.
But you will feel very happy once you finish servicing everything and you watch those numbers improve.
OBSerious
Member
I missed a bit of a flurry here after first posting. I wish that my biggest issue was whether to measure W/F via an APP or a dedicated meter. Since I last posted, I installed the new idler wheel from Serge in Ukraine ( addressed the noise from a worn bearing in the old wheel and is made very well btw) but my motor has a persistent humm/buzz (not 60hz). I’m using the crappy lamp cord that the previous owner provided but I did change the run cap…..No improvement. Grounding wires look to be correct and there are no speakers or tone arms to factor in. Am I looking at a teardown of the motor to inspect and clean?
Roger Gorke
Well-Known Member
Is the hum through the speakers or do you hear the motor humming when nothing is playing?
OBSerious
Member
Only from the motor. No amplification. No tone arm. No platter.
OBSerious
Member
I'll check it again but the bushings seem to be in good condition. The bushings are pliable and recover to their static position after putting pressure on the motor. The sound definitely seems "electronic" but I admit that this is odd since there is no amplification. I will see if I can isolate the sound to rule out vibration.
Roger Gorke
Well-Known Member
Mine hums slightly. Is your in a heavy plinth? Is it or the "sub chassis" touching anything? Can you feel the motor vibrating? Are you sure you have the right value of run cap?
I just looked back and it appears that you haven't disassembled the motor. This will make a huge difference...cleaning and relubing the bushings. I also put a small delrin disk in the bottom similar to the concept of the delrin in the main platter bearing.
Roger Gorke
Well-Known Member
Follow up on the issue of grounding...
Have folks put a three prong cord on their tables or are you still using a two prong? If so, how or where do you put the ground wire? Do you put the hot wire to the switch?
Have folks put a three prong cord on their tables or are you still using a two prong? If so, how or where do you put the ground wire? Do you put the hot wire to the switch?
OBSerious
Member
The plinth is a simple pine affair. I inherited it with the Russco. I plan on building off of it to add mass at a later date. I will check for contact points that could be the source of the vibration. The new run cap did nothing to address or worsen the vibration. It is a 3.5uf and the original is a 3.45. Given a 5-20% margin of error I thought that I could get away with a “close enough replacement”. I’ll inspect for vibration when I get off work. Those Derlin discs are definitely part of my strategy moving forward.
Roger Gorke
Well-Known Member
Does yours have a Bodine motor? It should say on the motor what the run cap should be. Mine was 3.75 so I had to get a 0.22 uf and put it in parallel with the bigger 3.5uf.