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Question about Opamps

While we are going off topic, I used to sell and service small Johnson/Evinrude outboard motors, the 9.9hp and 15hp were the same engine, the 9.9hp was detuned by using a smaller carburetor and sold for a lot less. If one wanted they could get a larger carburetor and get the same performance as the 15hp.

The 25hp and 35hp models were the same as well.

And what about power amps, I remember going to a Yamaha distributer and being told by the repair people that the CA800 and CA1000 were the same except for the latter having a larger power transformer. I don't know if this is true but it sounds similar to what was done with outboard motors.

Everything is not always what it seems.
 
Lets liken op amps to car tires, simply putting wide tires without make other changes to the cars suspension, steering etc would not give optimum performance.

But designing a car from the ground up, those tires would give superior performance to standard tires, this is without dispute.

Using an AD797 in the right application such as a low noise, low impedance preamp, with the optimum component values it would easily outperform a NE5532.

You are perfectly correct. All Hail The Hypnotoad!


No seriously, I mostly agree, with a few caveats:

- I don't believe in mystical, hidden properties of op amps. ("Oh this one is sweet, that one is transparent but harsh....") Op amps do not have a characteristic "sound" that is seperable from the circuit they are designed into. An op amp's function is simple and straightforward, and a proper spec sheet contains all you need to know about its performance, assuming it is correctly used. (Yes, I am well aware of guitar pedals that use "op amp" chips as distortion devices; I'm not talking about that kind of application.)

This is an important point. If one doesn't agree here, there isn't much basis for discussion, because we are back into the mysticism, unprovable preferences and popularity contests that audio hobbyists so love.

- Since it's hard to say one opamp is better than another in every possible way, it is similarly difficult to say the AD797 would be the first choice in >every< application. Granted, the AD797 is superb and state of the art. Still, there might be applications where the excessive bandwidth or power consumption would be a real handicap.

I'm not putting too much weight on this caveat. I'm just saying that I'm pretty sure that five years from now you will still find other opamps being designed into cost-no-object audio products.

- Finally, and I believe this >is< important... When comparing the audio performance of two top-shelf op amps these days, the differences can be several orders of magnitude below the most golden of hearing thresholds. In other words, the differences between the 10 best op amps are largely academic and can be seen only on sensitive measurements. They cannot possibly be audible. So the JM4560 has 1.2uV of noise and the AD797 has 0.5uV of noise. That's microvolts, kids. Not millivolts. There are less than 10 rooms in the entire US where you might hear that difference under carefully controlled conditions, with custom made experimental equipment. You are not hearing it at home, no matter what you believe. Even more so: what about bandwidth? In audio, how can anyone claim that 100MHz GBP represents an audible difference over 20MHz? If anything, it's a recipe for RFI and instability. Looks cool on a datasheet, though.

So, as I said, I do agree with you, and am glad that as a designer, I have such a wonderful palatte of op amp tools to choose from. But that doesn't mean I think that using them will necessarily yield a better result, in 99% of the cases. Audibility thresholds are real things.

-k
 
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You are perfectly correct. All Hail The Hypnotoad!


No seriously, I mostly agree, with a few caveats:

- I don't believe in mystical, hidden properties of op amps. ("Oh this one is sweet, that one is transparent but harsh....") Op amps do not have a characteristic "sound" that is seperable from the circuit they are designed into. An op amp's function is simple and straightforward, and a proper spec sheet contains all you need to know about its performance, assuming it is correctly used. (Yes, I am well aware of guitar pedals that use "op amp" chips as distortion devices; I'm not talking about that kind of application.)

This is an important point. If one don't agree here, there isn't much basis for discussion, because we are back into mysticism, unprovable preferences and popularity contests that audio hobbyists so love.

- Since it's hard to say one opamp is better than another in every possible way, it is similarly difficult to say the AD797 would be the first choice in >every< application. Granted, the AD797 is superb and state of the art. Still, there might be applications where the excessive bandwidth or power consumption would be a real handicap.

I'm not putting too much weight on this caveat. I'm just saying that I'm pretty sure that five years from now you will still find other opamps being designed into cost-no-object audio products.

Finally, and I believe this >is< important... When comparing the audio performance of two top-shelf op amps,

There are no HIDDEN properties. I did testing of CA 640 phono peramp with different op-amps in first and second stages. All of them had different pattern of intermodulation distortions. Comparing all combinations of 823, 2134 and 4562 I was able to choose one that had lowest distorions. Listening test confirmed that it was the best combination.
 
There are no HIDDEN properties. I did testing of CA 640 phono peramp with different op-amps in first and second stages. All of them had different pattern of intermodulation distortions. Comparing all combinations of 823, 2134 and 4562 I was able to choose one that had lowest distorions. Listening test confirmed that it was the best combination.



We've all done this many times in the labs I have worked in. How in the world do you know that you are hearing intermod distortions seperate from oscillations?

Unless you did this double-blind, with perfectly matched levels, and careful examination to eliminate continuous or transient instability, you are wasting your, and everyone else's, time.

-k
 
We've all done this many times in the labs I have worked in. How in the world do you know that you are hearing intermod distortions seperate from oscillations?

Unless you did this double-blind, with perfectly matched levels, and careful examination to eliminate continuous or transient instability, you are wasting your, and everyone else's, time.

-k

Could be oscillations or whatever, but when you look at high resolution spectrum, there are differences. This is the only what matters. The same things actually comes to tubes too. It is often easier to see differences than hear them (for that you may really need double blind testing).

Key thing is - ther are differences that can be measured by relatively simple objective test. Then the choice can be made for the most suitable device in the specific circuit.
 
Could be oscillations or whatever, but when you look at high resolution spectrum, there are differences. This is the only what matters. The same things actually comes to tubes too. It is often easier to see differences than hear them (for that you may really need double blind testing).

Key thing is - ther are differences that can be measured by relatively simple objective test. Then the choice can be made for the most suitable device in the specific circuit.

I understand this. But, how are you making the leap between what is measurable and what is audible?

One can measure differences between any two op amps ever manufactured, even within the same part number. But, of course, they would not all sound different! To take an extreme example... two properly functioning op amps, identical except that one has a GBP of 65 and one of 75, willl >never< sound different. Not in single blind or double blind or unblind or after 10 years of casual or critical listening. Not in your system or my system or any system that ever existed or ever will exist.....

-k
 
I understand this. But, how are you making the leap between what is measurable and what is audible?

One can measure differences between any two op amps ever manufactured, even within the same part number. But, of course, they would not all sound different! To take an extreme example... two properly functioning op amps, identical except that one has a GBP of 65 and one of 75, willl >never< sound different. Not in single blind or double blind or unblind or after 10 years of casual or critical listening. Not in your system or my system or any system that ever existed or ever will exist.....

-k

Best measument results are usually correlated with most transparent sound properties. Look at review (with measurements) of Simaudio Moon 840 preamp in the latest Stereophile for example of what can be done with proper engineering.
 
Best measument results are usually correlated with most transparent sound properties. Look at review (with measurements) of Simaudio Moon 840 preamp in the latest Stereophile for example of what can be done with proper engineering.

Careful, guy..... You're preaching to the choir here. :D

Dave :music:
 
If you can't beat'm, join'm

SimAudio has led the charge in op-amp improvements.
For years, SimAudio has helped, manufacturers such as TI, Analog Devices, Wolfson Engineering, Burr-Brown (at that time), Harris, Pacific Microsonics, Signetics, etc, etc. produce op-amps that not only looked good on paper, but that actually sounded good.

While there is no hope that they'd actually sound as good as a properly designed discrete circuit, these guys (the IC manufacturers) that had previously catered to the instrumentation crowd, now, finally, the audiophile market is open to them. ....and the hundreds of dollars that comes with that. Technical instruments have no need for rich, realistic sound and it takes, and will continue to take, maverick companies, such as Sim Audio, to unlock the full potential of what IC's might offer.

Kudos to all of the audio companies pushing the state of the art ever higher.

There, I feel better.
 
SimAudio has led the charge in op-amp improvements.
For years, SimAudio has helped, manufacturers such as TI, Analog Devices, Wolfson Engineering, Burr-Brown (at that time), Harris, Pacific Microsonics, Signetics, etc, etc. produce op-amps that not only looked good on paper, but that actually sounded good.

While there is no hope that they'd actually sound as good as a properly designed discrete circuit, these guys (the IC manufacturers) that had previously catered to the instrumentation crowd, now, finally, the audiophile market is open to them. ....and the hundreds of dollars that comes with that. Technical instruments have no need for rich, realistic sound and it takes, and will continue to take, maverick companies, such as Sim Audio, to unlock the full potential of what IC's might offer.

Kudos to all of the audio companies pushing the state of the art ever higher.

There, I feel better.

What is your point (sarcasm OFF), Simaugio gear sounds bad or measures poorly or what?

Semiconductor companies do make opamps with target use in audio like LT. What is wrong wit that?
 
SimAudio has led the charge in op-amp improvements.
For years, SimAudio has helped, manufacturers such as TI, Analog Devices, Wolfson Engineering, Burr-Brown (at that time), Harris, Pacific Microsonics, Signetics, etc, etc. produce op-amps that not only looked good on paper, but that actually sounded good.

While there is no hope that they'd actually sound as good as a properly designed discrete circuit, these guys (the IC manufacturers) that had previously catered to the instrumentation crowd, now, finally, the audiophile market is open to them. ....and the hundreds of dollars that comes with that. Technical instruments have no need for rich, realistic sound and it takes, and will continue to take, maverick companies, such as Sim Audio, to unlock the full potential of what IC's might offer.

Kudos to all of the audio companies pushing the state of the art ever higher.

There, I feel better.

Sheesh, Dude... at first I really believed this post, and I got very disheartened, since I consider you one of the goodest of the good guys, who really has the chops to speak with authority and who is a logical and clear thinker. Now that I get the sarcasm, (I missed the "hundreds of dollars" line before), I am very relieved!!

-k
 
Sheesh, Dude... at first I really believed this post, and I got very disheartened, since I consider you one of the goodest of the good guys, who really has the chops to speak with authority and who is a logical and clear thinker. Now that I get the sarcasm, (I missed the "hundreds of dollars" line before), I am very relieved!!

-k

It's scary how believable it sounds.
 
I think there are also unanswered properties regarding audio equipment such as "burn in", one side of me says that a component should perform the same initially as it would after 200 hours.

I saw once a test of capacitors and the graph showed a new capacitor and then the same capacitor after a week of use and the curve although the same was smoother, it initially it had some small bumps in it and after "burn in" the bumps were gone.

Smoke and mirrors, maybe or are there some things we don't yet understand?

I have found that gain plays a major part in the performance of an op amp and I am of the school that higher gain is better for op amps like the AD797 and LME49990.

Also switching out op amps may improve performance in respect to stability, an unsuitable op amp may be changed to one that is more stable in a certain circuit which would give better performance. The AD797 is known for it's instability if the circuit isn't right.

People were having problems with the LME49990 in the CNC phono stage, with overheating, they reduced the voltage to help alleviate this, however as I pointed out there must be something wrong, ie oscillations, I suggested a ceramic cap between the supply rail legs of the op amp and this seemed to cure the overheating problem.
 
I think there are also unanswered properties regarding audio equipment such as "burn in", one side of me says that a component should perform the same initially as it would after 200 hours.

I saw once a test of capacitors and the graph showed a new capacitor and then the same capacitor after a week of use and the curve although the same was smoother, it initially it had some small bumps in it and after "burn in" the bumps were gone.

Smoke and mirrors, maybe or are there some things we don't yet understand?

I have found that gain plays a major part in the performance of an op amp and I am of the school that higher gain is better for op amps like the AD797 and LME49990.

Also switching out op amps may improve performance in respect to stability, an unsuitable op amp may be changed to one that is more stable in a certain circuit which would give better performance. The AD797 is known for it's instability if the circuit isn't right.

People were having problems with the LME49990 in the CNC phono stage, with overheating, they reduced the voltage to help alleviate this, however as I pointed out there must be something wrong, ie oscillations, I suggested a ceramic cap between the supply rail legs of the op amp and this seemed to cure the overheating problem.

Thanks for the reply!

1- To me, it makes no sense to ask if component "burn in" exists per se, because there is absolutely no reason to believe that any two different components will have the same behavior. Also, what are the initial conditions? What is "break in" and what is drift? What are the thresholds of the definition? The question needs a much better statement to be answerable.

2- However, the existence of "burn in" is a very trivial thing to test for. It isn't mysterious or difficult in the least! In fact, it has been tested ad infinitum and continues to be tested every day. How else do you think a manufacturer does Quality Control on the production line, measures performance to assure that it will stay the same for the customer, and is always pulling samples off the line for detailed life testing? Besides, audio is but one blip. Many industries would consider break-in effects a big problem. So, if any component shows any unexpected break-in effects, they are thrown away and redesigned. If there is unavoidable break-in, then the manufacturer exercises the parts appropriately.

3- Your gain comment confuses me. Why is higher gain "better" and in what particular circuit? What is the magnitude of the effect, etc?

4- Re, the ceramic cap solution... glad you found that solution. But, I find it facepalmingly comical that those folks in the first place would set out to change the op amps in a piece of equipment without using a scope to watch for oscillation, and half a dozen other potential issues. I mean, that would be like tweaking your car engine without a tach or speedometer. Worse, actually, since you can't see or hear electrons.

5- You touch upon a profound aspect, which I would love to discuss, but not tonight. Too tired! It's important not to confuse well-defined scientific facts, with a clear statement, premise and answer sample space, with extremely complex multidimensional questions. Such questions are often highly under-defined, or subjective/perceptual, and are not generally prone to specific answers.

Just because audio is full of many important questions of this later type, doesn't mean that the more specific facts we know of the former type or wrong or irrelevant. It just means that the complex questions must be treated very differently. Here are some examples of what I mean by "facts" vs. "questions":

Examples of "Facts":

"The Fourier Transform 100% fully characterizes a signal." or

"These two sounds are completely identical." or

"A human's perception of sound is not in any way affected by spectral content above 25 KHz, provided it is below the threshold of pain." or

"Listener #5 can distinguish between two amplifiers 82% of the time." or

"Localization Inter-aural Time Difference cues are decoded by a neural cross-correlater in the Medial Superior Olive of the brainstem."

Examples of "Questions":

"Why does Speaker A sound so much better than Speaker B when their specs are almost identical?" or

"Does Class A sound better than Class D?" or

"Have speakers gotten better over the last 40 years?" or

"What is the best sounding op amp?"

-k
 
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You're welcome.

I really have no idea who nwavguy is.

His adventures over at Head-fi were the stuff the legend. Last I looked, he was still persona non grata over there.

But his Objective2 headphone amp is still one of the best out there, especially in bang for the buck.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
My underlying question for this topic was the built of this phono amp circuit (for MM cartridges)

Nobody here anymore, so topic's closed?
 
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