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Racks that require break in and drastic changes

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beerdraft said:
The rack needs to be in place with the volume up to about 75db and playing for this break in. The 75 db just helps the process so I suppose like some break-ins you can just play at low volume but this needs some volume.
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So I presume that it does not have to be your main system playing? I'd play music for 300 hours straight but I'd hate to leave it on constantly for 300 hours unattended... I'd prefer to use a cheap receiver and speakers.
 
GaryP said:
So I presume that it does not have to be your main system playing? I'd play music for 300 hours straight but I'd hate to leave it on constantly for 300 hours unattended... I'd prefer to use a cheap receiver and speakers.
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That I don't know but I would assume it does need to be your system and you can turn it off as you choose but the break in supposedly only happens when you are playing the music. I think having the volume up helps speed the process along a bit. The racks must need to feel the affects of the music on your gear as it plays. Why certain frequency disappear and reappear during this process like some noise canceling system is going on, I have no idea why or what is going on but I surely find it amazing that it is going through some kind of changes. I really didn't buy into this when I bought the racks but now I do.
 
Nice system beerdraft! I was looking at the pics of your system, and I didn't see what power filtering you were using other than the power cables. As someone has already mentioned, one effect on your system could be the electrical noise on the grid at different times of the day.

Are the shelves on that rack solid, or are they filled with some material like sand? If they have some inner filling it could be that any vibration applied to the rack is causing the filler to settle. This could cause the rack to improve its isolation quality over time.
 
I only have a Running Springs Audio Haley now on the front end. I've not had anything on amps in a long time. I do have a Dmitri to replace Haley and two Dukes to go on amps but will have to wait till the rack is done to add them into system. Its recommended to leave the system as it is till the break in is done. Once done it will adjust to changes made in the system within a much shorter time like a few hours. The shelf is solid looking but is very delicate they say and it is a filtering agent but not like the fesi sand that some conditioners use. It is layers of noise canceling stuff of some kind which heats up noise rapidly and keeps it from affecting your component some how. It seems to be going through cycles of taking away a frequency and seeing how you equipment performs without it then it builds it back up and feels the impact. I don't know but that is what is going on, it taketh away and generally either slams it right back in or slowly builds back up. How it is doing it since its in no way tied to the equipment other than its just resting on it is beyond me. Very cool though even though at most times its not like you would just want to listen other than to hear what is happening.
 
Weird. I can see how something like this would need break-in. It sounds like several different layers of different kinds of material are used, and yes, for vibrations to be absorbed, the energy has to go somewhere, to heat in this case, as in the case of every vibration absorbing material that I know of. These materials are probably viscous to some degree (even rocks are viscous, wait a few million years and you can see for yourself), and I guess they need to 'set' to what you tend to expose them to. Do you know if the stands are recomended for changing owners after they break-in?

Really, I'm still at a loss as to why vibrating my amp will make it sound different. Is the kinetic energy being converted to electrical energy and messing with the signal? This is something I've never even thought about.
 
"ItsTooLoud" said:
Really, I'm still at a loss as to why vibrating my amp will make it sound different. Is the kinetic energy being converted to electrical energy and messing with the signal?
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If your amplifier looks like this, then yes, maybe.
Products_Alternator2.jpg

Otherwise, I'd look for a different explanation.
 
Rocks are definitely not viscous.

Definition:
Viscosity is a measure of the resistance of a fluid which is being deformed by either shear stress or extensional stress. In everyday terms (and for fluids only), viscosity is "thickness". Thus, water is "thin", having a lower viscosity, while honey is "thick", having a higher viscosity. Viscosity describes a fluid's internal resistance to flow and may be thought of as a measure of fluid friction.
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Nope, rocks are viscous. Everything flows, though solids tend to flow very slowly, some more so than others.

So, why should vibrating my amp change the sound?
 
Solids do creep, but I don't think that quite fits the definition of viscosity. Unfortunately I cannot answer your other question.
 
In the bottom of the Grand Canyon there are rocks that are 2 billion years old. They ain't flowed OR creeped much. Just how long does this process take? ;)
 
jaymanaa said:
I found this http://www.criticalmasssystems.com/FAQ.htm#B15
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The guy in the picture looks *very* familiar. Wasn't he selling some thing on EBay that involved putting something like candle holders behind speakers and selling them as room treatments for $1200 a pair?

As for the racks making such a difference, I'm somewhat baffled. I can see vibration isolation having a huge effect on things like turntables, but for other source material? Would amplifier vibrations really cause such a large drop in bass output?

I'll follow this thread with interest.

bs
 
beerdraft said:
I only have a Running Springs Audio Haley now on the front end. I've not had anything on amps in a long time. I do have a Dmitri to replace Haley and two Dukes to go on amps but will have to wait till the rack is done to add them into system. Its recommended to leave the system as it is till the break in is done. Once done it will adjust to changes made in the system within a much shorter time like a few hours. The shelf is solid looking but is very delicate they say and it is a filtering agent but not like the fesi sand that some conditioners use. It is layers of noise canceling stuff of some kind which heats up noise rapidly and keeps it from affecting your component some how. It seems to be going through cycles of taking away a frequency and seeing how you equipment performs without it then it builds it back up and feels the impact. I don't know but that is what is going on, it taketh away and generally either slams it right back in or slowly builds back up. How it is doing it since its in no way tied to the equipment other than its just resting on it is beyond me. Very cool though even though at most times its not like you would just want to listen other than to hear what is happening.
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I am watching with an open mind. Especially since the racks cost more than everything I own put together, and I can't really comment on things in that rarefied air. I do know that different materials have different properties and a really crappy rack/shelf does cause all sorts of problems, so it is easy to assume that a really good rack will alleviate them. If you hear it, I can't argue with that.

However, the part about not changing the gear around until you are done? And then it will readjust? If you had put the new gear in place before you started, wouldn't it just adjust to that set-up anyway? Or does the dealer tell the rack what the original setup is before it goes to your house. Using the theory that the racks feel the difference in how the equipment is performing, wouldn't Speed Metal or even Rap cause the rack to adjust incorrectly if all you have been playing for say 500 hours is soft chamber music or Smooth Jazz,

I really am not trying to be a naysayer here, but there are a few things that just don't sound plausible. And I don't mean like magic pebble plausible, as I can understand things that are structural having a real effect on things. And like I said earlier I am a firm believer in if you hear it, that is good enough for me.
 
what is this about exactly? that cheap racks vibrate to make noise you can hear or a vibration changes the way your electronics work? is the human ear even capable of detecting these changes? this seems hard to believe
 
"ItsTooLoud" said:
Weird. I can see how something like this would need break-in. It sounds like several different layers of different kinds of material are used, and yes, for vibrations to be absorbed, the energy has to go somewhere, to heat in this case, as in the case of every vibration absorbing material that I know of. These materials are probably viscous to some degree (even rocks are viscous, wait a few million years and you can see for yourself), and I guess they need to 'set' to what you tend to expose them to. Do you know if the stands are recomended for changing owners after they break-in?

Really, I'm still at a loss as to why vibrating my amp will make it sound different. Is the kinetic energy being converted to electrical energy and messing with the signal? This is something I've never even thought about.
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I really have no more answers at this point than anyone else. I do hope to learn more about this after CES. The owner of CMS is there till the 15th I think as they are set up in the BAT and Lamm room as well as a few others. If BAT and Lamm believe in these racks enough to pay the bucks to have there stuff on them then that has to mean something good. The racks for the show are custom made and have to be broken in prior to show with the equipment on it then taken to the show and allowed 3 to 8 hours to settle back in. Anyone who would go to all that trouble must believe in them. I don't know what happens yet when you change equipment, that said if the racks do what they say they will maybe I won't have to change equipment. Think about for a moment if these vibrations really do cause the amps and sources to amplify noise or it messes with there ability to do there job. I read that article and another one I found similar and it sais that the vibrations can cause things like a spike or a frequency that you find brite and fatiguing and or cause funny things in certain bass notes. These are all things that we generally write off as room acoustic issues. What if its not all room and some or most of it is the vibration energy causing your stuff to have these problems. That means we will always buy stuff trying to improve things which we may do so with the new purchase but we will soon figure we still have certain problems and buy another piece. If this rack fixes things like I've heard then I may not purchase anything for a long time. I don't know what happens if you completely change the equipment on the racks but it will be one of my questions soon as I'm able to talk to them again. I guess what I'm trying to say is if these problems do exist because of what your equipment rest on, what could be more important in your system than getting rid of things that mess up your sound before that expensive cable, before that expensive tube, before those great speakers. Just a thought, I still don't know the end result nor do I have the answers but the fact that people believe in it enough as I stated above was enough to make me go out on a limb and buy them and I certainly hope they work.
 
The Stereophile 2010 CES blog shows Lamm amps on these racks, if I'm not mistaken. Lamm is top shelf gear.
 
I'm still confiused how the bass just goes away and comes back strongly. If there were minor variations throughout the day based on different line voltages, i'd be slightly skeptical, but to completely go away so only mids/highs remain, then within minutes, it's back very strong again....I just don't see how a rack could cause this.
 
Yeah the racks may make a difference somehow... but what about all the different kind of floors the stands are going to be set on?

I have an open mind for most of this stuff but something smells fishy. Maybe Lamm does have their amps sitting on the stands. Maybe they feel the people that are likely to spend that much money on these stands will have no problem paying top dollar for their amps. I'm sure they don't want them sitting on a flexy rack. Maybe they think they just look cool.
 
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