realistic vs marantz

[Nat]

cla6665 -- My point about getting indignant is this: people say what a rip off all the time when what they mean it's too expensive. I don't think that anyone actually thought there was robbery involved, and I would be very surprised if anyone had any idea you were the repair guy involved, so its not like your good name was traduced.
Let them say what they want -- either people want your product enought to pay your prices or they don't.
As I pointed out, repair people need to make a living, so I don't have a problem with asking what is needed to keep the doors open and the lights on. And the fact that you rewire arms does go someway to justifying a higher price -- but people are within their rights to question whether the expense is justified if the existing wires still are fine. Similarly they are within their rights to wonder about veneering a midlevel table, but as long as the buyer wants it, its worth it to him.
I used to be amazed at the cameras people wanted me to repair, and were willing to pay for -- cheap cameras that they wouldn't even actually use, but their father or someone had used it and they wanted to keep it working out of sentiment. I usually cut them a break on the price, but ultimately time is worth money, and it didn't make any sense to do it for free. And again, if I had done it for free it probably would have pleased them less...

 

[4140]

Sure 4140, not a problem. Thank you man, out of curiosity what is that you don't like about my TT's? I am always all ears when it comes to constructive comments. I do this because of passion for music and also love to work with wood too, unfortunatelly I have to buy my veneers from a supplier. I do replace all the wires all the time, just like to give the TT back with a fresh set of wires
Thanks

I would love to tell you but not so everyone can see. And either way it really just my personal tast and how I work with wood and finish. I'm 45 and been working with wood since I was 14. I have tools for every job. I love power tools. I also like my electronic tools but that the job side to make the job easyer. My wood working tools are for fun. Buying veneer allready made is alot more pricey than making your own. The only draw back to making your own veneer is of course the price of the tools to do it but mostly the time. I will spend 8 or more hours just making veneer and not alot of it. Very time consuming. the pros is of course also its cheeper and you get to pick what you want and not someone else. to make veneer. I dont know what tools you have but you need a very good jointer, planer, table saw, band saw, drum sander. Most of mine are industral machines. I have no kids. So I can spend alot on both electronic and woodworking tools. Plus my house is just about paid for. There are alot fo good veneer already made. And sometimes I do buy it if it catches my eye. Like I said. I am more into exotic or domistic with a flare.

 

[jnoyes]

Nat,

Why would one need to build a new plinth for a Marantz 6300??? It's made of a thick block of particle board. No gluing or stapling involved. It's not a sail boat, it's a turntable. What stresses are incurred that the particle board can't handle?

Jon Noyes

 

[jnoyes]

OOps.

Those comments were intended for 4140, not Nat.

Jon

 

[kirk57]

Marantz vs Realistic....IMHO these are at somewhat different ends of the *perceived* quality spectrum.

This is kinda like saying I can buy a used Porsche for $20k or I can fix up my Toyota to go just as fast and handle as well for $15k. At the end of the day which would you rather have parked in your driveway?

no offense to all you souped-up Toyota fans out there...

 

[jnoyes]

I agree that the Marantz is better, but I don't think the spectrum is quite as broad as your analogy. I do think that at the end of the day the refinished Lab 420 would not fetch a resale value that justifies the expense of shipping both ways and $185 for the rebuild. I've never seen a Realistic TT sell for $375. On the other hand, the resale value of the Marantz, assuming it is taken care of, is likely to be $375 or more. If one is a Realistic fan trying to put together a complete system that may not make a difference. Looking at them simply as vintage TTs the Marantz makes more sense. The market for Realistic is soft and will likely remain so. Often Marantz 6100s sell for more than TOTL Realistics. IMHO, on a strictly quality basis the Lab 420 is superior to the Marantz 6100. Thats basically the reverse of the analogy. That makes for bargains if you know your stuff.

Jon

 

[jnoyes]

cla6665 -- My point about getting indignant is this: people say what a rip off all the time when what they mean it's too expensive. I don't think that anyone actually thought there was robbery involved, and I would be very surprised if anyone had any idea you were the repair guy involved, so its not like your good name was traduced.

I think this misses the point. Claiming something is a rip off is offensive to the seller. Anyone making this claim based on the Marantz in question simply doesn't know the market value of this TT. Most restored 6300s go for $350-$500. Most of these do not have rewired tonearms. The market is established by the buyers, not the seller. If someone thinks this is too expensive, then they shouldn't buy. There are plenty of other buyes that will.
I don't have any personal knowledge of this particular 6300. but giving cla6665 the benefit of the doubt, $375 is a bargain. Anyone that thinks it's a rip off should buy one and do the work before making that ridiculous claim. I don't think cla6665 is getting rich doing these restorations. I appreciate that people like cla6665 restore these vintage classics and make them available to the rest of us. Anyone claiming rip off needs to apologize.


Jon

 

[Nat]

Just to make it clear -- I didn't say anything was a ripoff. I agree that its potentially offensive to the seller, but I continue to think people use the word loosely, simply to mean not at all worth it, and I doubt if the poster who did use it realized that the seller would ever see the comment.
Obviously it would be better to say 'I don't think its worth it.', but people often go for the overstatement in order to underline their point.
And I'll be candid -- to my mind, both prices are way more than the actual performance/dollar justifies -- there are a lot of cheaper alternatives that also look and sound good. So I would not buy the Marantz, even though I don't doubt there are plenty of people who are attracted enough by its looks and heritage to make a different judgement. And I don't think the market value of the Radio Shack justifies such an expensive cosmetic upgrade, but again, other people will disagree.
It did seem to me that the OP was asking for advice, and he got it -- not carefully or nicely put, but probably well intentioned, though obviously there was collateral damage.

 

[jnoyes]

I know you didn't make the comment, but you certainly seem to be defending it. You also imply that cla6665 shouldn't take offense to it. I disagree.

Perhaps the Marantz performance does not justify the price, but the popularity of vintage Marantz equipment probably drives the price up because people want to have a turntable to go with their system. Of the Marantz TTs of this vintage this is probably the best looking and it's built very well with some nice features. It's rare for this vintage in having a real wood veneer rather than vinyl. The fit and finish is also above many of the others of this vintage.

I think vintage collectors are often willing to sacrifice a bit of performance to have a system with the look and feel of a classic. Same thing with automobiles.

Jon

 

[Nat]

I think the comment was not meant hurtfully -- the poster had no idea that it would be seen by the seller. An example of how you never know what will happen to internet comments, especially since people interpret expressions differently.

 

[jnoyes]

It doesn't matter that the person that made the comment didn't know the seller would see it. I was offended because he implied that anyone that sold a Marantz for that price or more, ripped someone off. That includes me and others as well. You might be surprised that many of the people that do restorations and sell on Ebay are members of this forum. Frankly I can't imagine that anyone that was accused of ripping someone off would NOt be offended, regardless of their interprtation of the expression. It clearly implies dishonesty, deceit, lack of character, or fraud. It's a term that needs to be very carefully used.
Enough said.

Jon

 

[cla6665]

Thais right guys, at the end of the day is a matter of preference. I did not get offended, I just needed to defend my business, that's all. Sometimes it's a matter of " good memories", I have had a few customers that wanted their old cheap TT's restored just because it reminded them of the good old days.
I do agree that there is a major difference between the Marantz and R.Lab, very different TT's.
Anyway no offense taken

Cheers

 

[4140]

OOps.

Those comments were intended for 4140, not Nat.

Jon

I just dont like partical board. If it get chiped and yes even wet. Its very hard to fix. I am not a fan of mdf either. I like plywood. The glue that they used even back in the 70's dries out and starts to pull away. Your right on the 6300 being a big chunk of wood. I am talking more about the ones that have 4 sides and a top. Most of them like that were not put together that well. Plain an simple as a woodworker goes and not electronics tech. I just hate paritcal board, mdf, wafer board. Plywood is better to work with, stronger then all three. I mainly use Baltic Birch plywood. Solid birch, no voids or gaps in it, no lesser wood on the inside layers, its just a better product. My personal preferance.

 

[4140]

realistc ver marantz

To be honest. I own 2 marantz 6300, one 6200, one 6100, one 6110, realistic 440, lab 60, garrard zerro 100, sl 95b, 95, rc88/4, type A, 4 HF, Bic 980, two philips 312's, Pioneer pl 530, 518, 560, kenwood KD 2070, Thorens 165, ADC acutrack 4000 just to name a few. I have alot more. Every turntable is eye to the beholder. I love ever turntable I own. Each one has its own special feature. If someone loves a table, lets face it. Isnt that all that matters. He loves vinyl and wants it to look good. As for the sound better on one then the other. That depends on the ears listing to it. One may like the sound better on the realistic than the marantz or vise versa. People as me all the time when I go do service calls and ask what they should buy. I tell them, dont listen to a salesman. If its a tv. just pick out the one that looks the best to you or stereo as the one that sounds best to you. Chances are it may not be the most expensive one out there.

 

[jnoyes]

I just dont like partical board. If it get chiped and yes even wet. Its very hard to fix. I am not a fan of mdf either. I like plywood. The glue that they used even back in the 70's dries out and starts to pull away. Your right on the 6300 being a big chunk of wood. I am talking more about the ones that have 4 sides and a top. Most of them like that were not put together that well. Plain an simple as a woodworker goes and not electronics tech. I just hate paritcal board, mdf, wafer board. Plywood is better to work with, stronger then all three. I mainly use Baltic Birch plywood. Solid birch, no voids or gaps in it, no lesser wood on the inside layers, its just a better product. My personal preferance.

Turntables dont normally get wet. On the oft chance that something gets spilled on one it isn't likely that the particle board, thats only exposed underneath, would be damaged. I agree that the plywood you use is stronger, but that strength isn't significant to the performance of a turntable. They simply aren't subjected to any significant stress in normal operation. Turntable bases are more about mass than strength. Plywood may have a very small advantage there, but I doubt it's significant to performance. As long as they are structurally sound I don't see an advantage to making a new base for quality turntables such as the Marantz 6300 or other comparable TTs. The money to be made restoring turntables doesn't warrant the expense of the equipment necessary to build a new base, unless you happen to have it for other wood working. I appreciate your commitment to building quality bases and apparently you do excellent work. My issue is more about criticism of those who choose to reveneer the original base, as long as they are structurally sound.

Jon

 

[4140]

Most of the time I see the bottoms peeling up on the wood itself. And Have see enough marantz's like the 6300 with chunks missing out of them. I have stated I do it as a hobby and love for wood working. I do it by choice. I'm not trying to sell something as better even though the plywood I use is. I Just want the base to look perfect. and for the tools I have in woodworking. Its most often easyer for me to start for scratch then peel the old off, sand smooth and fix it first. For me I just build new. Lets take for instance the technics sl 23. Its a good table, not top of the line by no means but it had an ugly angled front on it. Mine is straight and once I made the base round the size of the platter and no base under the tonearm. My tables I try to make a one of a kind. I make them to what I like orthe person I am doing it for. If all I did was reveneer. That wouldnt be any fun to me and get old real fast. A table to me must look every bit as good as it sounds. So I go a bit extra. I do make them out of mdf if that is what they want. I will not use partical board period. It is the worst wood to use. Yes, you might take very good care of your table, but you might have a friend over and do damage to it by acedint. I want mine to withstand that. Thats all.

 

[4140]

Turntables dont normally get wet. On the oft chance that something gets spilled on one it isn't likely that the particle board, thats only exposed underneath, would be damaged. I agree that the plywood you use is stronger, but that strength isn't significant to the performance of a turntable. They simply aren't subjected to any significant stress in normal operation. Turntable bases are more about mass than strength. Plywood may have a very small advantage there, but I doubt it's significant to performance. As long as they are structurally sound I don't see an advantage to making a new base for quality turntables such as the Marantz 6300 or other comparable TTs. The money to be made restoring turntables doesn't warrant the expense of the equipment necessary to build a new base, unless you happen to have it for other wood working. I appreciate your commitment to building quality bases and apparently you do excellent work. My issue is more about criticism of those who choose to reveneer the original base, as long as they are structurally sound.

Jon

You are right on the price of woodworking tools prices to just restoring turntables. I do more than that. Alot more. I have totally restored my house, built all my own furniture, make my own pens and pencils, make my own darts, anything with wood. So I didnt go out and buy 6000 worth of power and hand tools for turntables. That would be stupid. I bought them for alot more. As for the paritcal board, I'm sorry most of the wons I have seen that get old arnt anymore as far as structurally sound. Look at it this way. would you want a self made out of paritcal board covered or plywood covered. They both just sit there.

 

[Nat]

At least for speaker building, there is a significant difference in resonant behavior between plywood and MDF or particle board. And though turntables don't directly produce the sorts of vibrations that speakers do, they are usually in the sound field, so a plywood plinth might very well sound different than an MDF or particle board one. Don't know that it would be better, or how different it would sound, but with turntables, small differences in how vibrations are handled can have significant effects.
Certainly a lot of the people building massive plinths for idler drives seem to think that plywood is better than the alternatives, though how a really massive plinth acts may be significantly different than a standard sized one.
It would be interesting to hear comments (and maybe even measurements) from a conventional plinth/plywood plinth shootout of the same table.

 

[4140]

there again, the sound difference would depend on the one hearing it. There really is no right answer to that question. Everybody hears things differently just like everybody sees thing differntly. I have adjusted tvs for people that are color blind but yet they though it looked great when I was done and I hated it. So I dont believe there is a perfect turntable. Maybe a perfect table for one person once they found it but not one perfect that suits all or base for that matter. That is why I never state that its going to improve the sound. Who really knows if it will or not. All I state is its a better wood and better wood joints. The miter joint that all tables use is the weakes of all wood joints. Then most often stapled in the corners. No one will ever convice me that that is a stable platform.

 

[Metalownz]

Marantz vs Realistic....IMHO these are at somewhat different ends of the *perceived* quality spectrum.

This is kinda like saying I can buy a used Porsche for $20k or I can fix up my Toyota to go just as fast and handle as well for $15k. At the end of the day which would you rather have parked in your driveway?

no offense to all you souped-up Toyota fans out there...

Your saying that a Realistic LAB-420 is equivalent to a Toyota?? lol Not hardly.