Receivers versus Separates

[Toasted Almond]

All the receivers I like are the low-powered ones (Advent 300, KLH 52), and I'm not a receiver guy at all. I think those sound much better than the high-powered jobs. I have an original Acoustic Research Receiver that I keep cause I love the original AR company, not because of the particular sound of the receiver.

 

[onepixel]

Why? Because it's fun!

I have both receivers and separates. Generally the separates tend to sound better. But I'm not always nit picking or being critical about the sound. Just enjoying the tunes.

 

[SoCal Sam]

I've got both. Separates sound much better than receivers, especially from the silver era that I like. However, receivers are so much more collectable. I have Rotel and Marantz separates and receivers from the same year and the separates win hands down. I'm just getting into the 80's receivers such as the R-117 and the NAD 7600 and they flat out crank with lots of headroom and the ability to drive 2 ohm loads.

 

[TiberiuS]

I run a Pioneer SX-1250 fed through a pair of Celestion A3's in my main system. I have several amps in the system, vintage and more recent but the 1250 in my opinion is the best vintage unit I've heard and is the one I have connected most of the time nowadays. I'm under no illusions but the build and sound of the 1250 does something to me which my SA-9800 or Technics A1000 pre/power can't. I'm not a collector in any sense, I bought the 1250 on audition, not because of how it looks; what I like stays, what I'm not so keen on goes. Hence out of my vintage amp/receiver collection I now have the SA-9500 and the SX-1250, have had some other amps/recieivers and let them go; as much as I like them these two are by far the best to my ears on my music in my system .

Overall, the A3's are power hungry beasts and the 1250 is the only powerhouse I have which can really open them up without sounding overly bright or stressed. Admitted I could better it with a high end pre/power setup but I'd need to spend upwards of £1500 UK, far more than it cost me so I'm happy . The A3's are rated at 4 ohms and 300wRMS.

I can't speak about the SX-1980 but I've heard some mixed opinions about it, it is undeniably an impressive bit of kit though. If I bought any more top end vintage gear it would be a Spec pre/power, these are rare birds here in the UK and now command sky high prices.

Regards, TiberiuS.

 

[Njord Noatun]

Are we talking separates as in Pre + Power + Tuner here? Or just an integrated amp?

As many, I own TOTL receivers (Concept 16.5, Yamaha CR-2020) as well as TOTL separates (SPEC 1 + 4 + TX9500ii). I don't want to venture into what sounds best - they are hooked up in different rooms, with different sources and different speakers. Besides, my ears are far from audiophile quality in the first place - I just plain like the old stuff!

Now to my point: I am not certain I fully agree with the notion that separates are soo much cheaper. Except for a few extremely rare and/or collectible receivers (1980, 2600, 3020 spring to mind) I believe that one can purchase, in the open market (e.g., eBay) a whole slew of TOTL or near TOTL receivers (100-170 wpc - e.g. SX-1250) for mostly under $1,000. I welcome you to find TOTL separates (pre, power, tuner) in this output range (e.g., SPECs) for cheaper when adding component prices and shipping - please let me know when you do!

In short, I believe that comparable separates and receivers are priced at similar price points.

Rgds,

 

[SoCal Sam]

Are we talking separates as in Pre + Power + Tuner here? Or just an integrated amp?

As many, I own TOTL receivers (Concept 16.5, Yamaha CR-2020) as well as TOTL separates (SPEC 1 + 2 + TX9500ii). I don't want to venture into what sounds best - they are hooked up in different rooms, with different sources and different speakers. Besides, my ears are far from audiophile quality in the first place - I just plain like the old stuff!

Now to my point: I am not certain I fully agree with the notion that separates are soo much cheaper. Except for a few extremely rare and/or collectible receivers (1980, 2600, 3020 spring to mind) I believe that one can purchase, in the open market (e.g., eBay) a whole slew of TOTL or near TOTL receivers (100-170 wpc - e.g. SX-1250) for mostly under $1,000. I welcome you to find TOTL separates (pre, power, tuner) in this output range (e.g., SPECs) for cheaper when adding component prices and shipping - please let me know when you do!

In short, I believe that comparable separates and receivers are priced at similar price points.

Rgds,

I own a 2500 and also a 2130/3650/300DC separates setup. In today's wacky prices, the 2500 will run $1200-1500 while the 2130/3650/300DC will likely cost $700/$1200/$600 respectively. The 2600 is in the $4000 range. None of these setups are comparable in power.

 

[Duffinator]

It's the Speakers

I'm no expert on separates and I'm a receiver guy. I like the looks of receivers better and it's mostly convience and cost that drive my purchasing decisions. But side by side I hear little difference when listening to different amps in the same system with the same speakers. This goes for separates to separates or separates to receivers or receivers to receivers at similar price points, build quality, and power at moderate listening levels for me. And vintage gear to vintage gear or new AVR to AVR. If you are getting into playing music over 100 db that may be different but I don't listen to music that loud.

A friend of mine has an incredible separates system driven by B&K mega watt monoblocks. It's the finest system I get to listen to on a regular basis and sounds significantly better than my systems. But I wonder if it's the pre/pro and amps that make the biggest difference or his megabucks Kef reference speakers and Martin Logan Decent sub that I'm hearing. :scratch2: When I'm building a moderate system I'd overshoot on the speakers as much as possible and then get my amps to match later. With the caveat that you obviously need enough power to drive your speakers loud enough without clipping.

BTW, I think my friends Decent sub adds the most to the listening experice in his system. Take the opportunity to listen to one if you ever get the chance. :yes:

 

[wineslob]

Cosmos, as far as your question, IMHO it is alot of "nostalgia". (just look at all the "I had a....... and finally got one again" threads) As far as separates vs recievers, separates win, hands down. Case in point, power supplies. How many "powerhouse" recievers rated at 150/w channel (or more) @ 8 ohms deliver close to double (at least 75% of theoretical) that @ 4 ohms? Not many. Too many just "run out of gas". Do they sound bad? Nope, I've heard some very respectible reciever systems.

 

[jimfet]

All good points, but jimfet's post kind of answered a question I wasn't asking. I understand that in terms of pure stable maximum power the seperates would indeed eat the receivers, but what I was asking was whether, within it's comfortable power range (which in the case of the 1980 has to be accepted as a pretty big range), there's any difference in what you hear (as distinct from what laboratory instruments tell you) between a TOTL receiver and a similarily power rated set of seperates. ................... Jim.

I'm sorry Combwork, but I was answering Cosmos question of why receivers are costing more than seps. And for the likes of me I don't know. Mainly because I wouldn't. I would much rather have high quality sound and power for my $.

 

[Duffinator]

I'm sorry Combwork, but I was answering Cosmos question of why receivers are costing more than seps. And for the likes of me I don't know. Mainly because I wouldn't. I would much rather have high quality sound and power for my $.

Not everybody here is paying those high prices on ePay. I bet a vast majority of AK members paid a lot less than ePay prices for most of their gear. So if you can get a Pioneer SX-1250 for $200 that seems to be a pretty good deal by my standards.

 

[jimfet]

Not everybody here is paying those high prices on ePay. I bet a vast majority of AK members paid a lot less than ePay prices for most of their gear. So if you can get a Pioneer SX-1250 for $200 that seems to be a pretty good deal by my standards.

I agree with that price. What kind a Caddy you got?

 

[Duffinator]

I agree with that price. What kind a Caddy you got?

That's the name of my favorite song from London Calling by The Clash. I use my one of my favorite albums artwork as my avatar and then list my favorite song from the album, or at least the one that's stuck in my head. :thmbsp:

 

[SoCal Sam]

Cosmos, as far as your question, IMHO it is alot of "nostalgia". (just look at all the "I had a....... and finally got one again" threads) As far as separates vs recievers, separates win, hands down. Case in point, power supplies. How many "powerhouse" recievers rated at 150/w channel (or more) @ 8 ohms deliver close to double (at least 75% of theoretical) that @ 4 ohms? Not many. Too many just "run out of gas". Do they sound bad? Nope, I've heard some very respectible reciever systems.

NAD 7600 and Luxman R-117 both meet this criteria. I believe the R-117 peaks at over 700 watts at 2 ohm.

 

[vintagestereo]

NAD 7600 and Luxman R-117 both meet this criteria. I believe the R-117 peaks at over 700 watts at 2 ohm.

Sam -- According to the Spec sheet I have, the R-117 is rated for 700 watts dynamic at 2 ohms, but, at that level....who really cares? I'm pretty sure that's the highest output of any Receiver ever. If a 2600, 1980, G-33000 or SA-1000 tried that....they'd toast!

 

[bully]

Only in a perfect world will an amplifier double power driving 8 ohms to 4 ohms. Julian Hirsch mentioned that 125% of 8 ohm rated output into 4 ohms is a good standard to use.
Just looking for an FTC standard 4 ohm rating is a telling plus.
My old JVC JR-S501 was 120/160 wpc into 8/4 ohms, and it was a very powerful receiver.
My Concept 16.5 may be the strongest 160 wpc amp on the planet, it was rated at 250 wpc into 4 ohms. Only in small print does Pioneer mention 200 wpc into 4 ohms for the very nice SX-1250/5590, and nowhere could I find a 4 ohm rating for the G-9700.
The Concept receiver, in particular, will truly rival any 150-200 wpc separate amp, and can easily fool the listener into thinking separates are playing.
That all said, I prefer my several separates systems. A HUGE bargain system would be the Yamaha M-70/C-70 both TOTL models from 1982-84. These go under the radar of most buyers, but they provide that Yamaha lack of sound in spades--just a wonderful system. (Although mine used the C-80, I cannot imagine that the C-70 is anything but a typical high quality Yamaha preamp.)

OH, yeah. Receivers. I still have four of them here. But I have gear enough for maybe 3 or 4 more than the 4 separates systems I have set up.

 

[vintagestereo]

The age old debate! Everyone has an opinion. Mine is based on 100's of "blind" A/B tests conducted on customers in my former career in audio sales.

I would say that about 90% of the time when people were told that they were comparing a TOTL Receiver with a set of TOTL Separates they would pick the separates and feel quite proud of their choice, since they believed that Separates were for "audiophiles", whereas the Receivers were for the less sophisticated.

I found this disparity rather interesting.....especially since when I had told them they were listening to the Separates they were actually listening to the Receivers and vice versa.

So, I figure that vintage TOTL Receivers sound at least as good to most people as TOTL Separates and, to my eyes, are nicer looking to boot!

-- Chris

 

[Duffinator]

I found this disparity rather interesting.....especially since when I had told them they were listening to the Separates they were actually listening to the Receivers and vice versa.

Chris you're killing me. I think that most people would have a hard time accurately identifying one piece of similar gear compared to another in a true DBT. Speakers are a whole different ballgame.

 

[Damage]

Chris you're killing me. I think that most people would have a hard time accurately identifying one piece of similar gear compared to another in a true DBT. Speakers are a whole different ballgame.

I second that. Maybe MOSFETs versus bipolar, etc, etc... but not receivers versus seperates.

 

[Cosmos]

Chris you're killing me. I think that most people would have a hard time accurately identifying one piece of similar gear compared to another in a true DBT. Speakers are a whole different ballgame.

I can wholeheartedly agree.. and there probably is a slight sound difference in the electronics which can be influenced by perception.

The question, in this thread, wasn't "WHY BUY A RECEIVER?", it was "WHY PAY MORE FOR A RECEIVER?". The intent was meant to be compared to separate power amp preamp and Tuner.. Here's an example:

SAE Mk4DM (250 wpc) ($285): http://cgi.ebay.com/SAE-MK-IVDM-MK-...0QQihZ019QQcategoryZ39783QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

SAE 2100L Preamp ($306): http://cgi.ebay.com/sae-2100-preamp...2QQihZ016QQcategoryZ14974QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Pioneer TX-9500II tuner ( $112.50) http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-TX-9500...0QQihZ003QQcategoryZ73382QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Total with $100 shipping about $800..

Compared to an Marantz 2500 at $ 810 plus shipping: http://cgi.ebay.com/Marantz-2500-St...ryZ73382QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Or a Pioneer SX-1980 at $ 2,850. (another at $2000 etc, etc, etc..) http://cgi.ebay.com/PIONEER-SX-1980...ryZ50596QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The point is why? I just don't get it.. I like receivers, I own several. But at recent prices on the bay, I don't see myself buying but selling.

 

[Damage]

Again... its an addiction. Just look at vintagestereo.