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Record clamps: Ok, consider me converted.

The Technics isn's a suspended deck. It uses a diecast chassis with heavy damping to reduce vibration and resonance.

A suspended deck such as the Linn LP12, Thorens TD150, TD160, ariston RD11, AR turntables use a sring loaded suspension system. The arm and platter are attached to a subchassis which is attached to the plinth usually by three springs, thus isolating them from vibration, including that of the motor, and resonance. The subchassis literally hangs down from the plinth, which is why it is known as 'suspended'.

It you look at the service manuals for some of the decks mentioned at vinylengine you'll get a better idea of the differences between suspended and non-suspended turntables.
 
"Let's please not get into that tired debate "

the only tired thing is the head in the sand about adding unnecessary weight. if added weight were to be a benefit, it would be at the periphery, a great place to press downward, like a clamp, improving record contact to the surface of the platter.
 
avole said:
You are aware Linn specifically recommend against record clamps? According to them they damage the main bearing. Here's an extract from the Linn set up manual:

3. The use of record weights, or clamps. This will not improve the performance of the turntable. The weight or clamp stresses the record. This stress causes the record to transmit energy in an unpredictable manner. Any time we can’t control the energy in the system we can expect performance to suffer. The sound will change (usually getting "brighter", but it will not be an improvement if you really listen to it.) On top of that, weights can destroy the main bearing, which is already working at a pressure of two and a half tons per square inch. Adding a two pound weight to the platter increases that pressure by twenty percent. Whatever improvement you may believe you bear will be immaterial as soon as the spindle drills through the thrust plate of the bearing.
Click to expand...

Linn discouraged the use of ANY AND EVERY tweak in the history of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. It didn't matter if it sounded better or not, they rejected it first on sound with their "if you really listen line" and then fear of causing damage.

BTW lots of the old LP12's have a shot bearing anyway. Put a stethoscope on the top plate and listen.

Marc mc
 
What?? I can't think of any other turntable that has been tweaked more than an LP 12 by the manufacturer themselves.

linn do know a bit about making turntables after all, probably more than most on this forum.
 
Back to the OP's question. Some like clamps, and some like weights. I prefer weights as they do not stress the record itself. I run all Thorens suspended tables, and have adjusted the suspension for each weight I use on that particular table. The Thorens sintered bearings are more than robust, and overdesigned to accomadate their own Thorens Stabilizer which weighs in at a hefty 1.21lb. or 550grams!
The bottom line for me is on a suspened Thorens table you are safe with a weight 550 grams or less, you just need to rebalance the table with a record and your weight of choice installed. IMHO
Regards,
Jim
 
Do you mean the Thorens Stabilizer currently in production? That is produced by a totally different company to the one that made the classic turntables so I'm surprised to hear that. Didn't think they were interested in legacy gear.
 
avole said:
What?? I can't think of any other turntable that has been tweaked more than an LP 12 by the manufacturer themselves.

linn do know a bit about making turntables after all, probably more than most on this forum.
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Linn recomends against tweeking the LP12, because their own tweaks are a profit center to them. I like the LP12, but the continual pricey upgrades drive me away from their product personally. Please don't take this as Linn bashing, because it is not. I like the product, just dislike their business model. To each their own.:thmbsp:

Regards,
Jim
 
avole said:
Do you mean the Thorens Stabilizer currently in production? That is produced by a totally different company to the one that made the classic turntables so I'm surprised to hear that. Didn't think they were interested in legacy gear.
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Weighs the same as the legacy model. Early LP12's are not legacy models?
Regards,
Jim
 
I'm not going down this road with you, you win.:scratch2: I'll enjoy my tables and you enjoy your's. I guess you feel someone always has to be right, while I feel everyone has a right to their own enjoyment.
Enjoy,
Jim
 
You're being a touch oversensitive perhaps. I asked a straight question because I didn't know Thorens, the old company, produced stabilisers at all, and it seemed surprising that Thorens, the new company, would have sold products for the old models. They don't even have a factory these days. Not sure why Linn was brought into the discussion.

Edit: Sorry, hadn't noticed you'd also replied to my earlier post about Linn. Don't disagree with your comments about the business model either, and Linn aren't the only people in the HiFi industry who use it. But that's capitalism for you, anything goes as long as it makes money.
 
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avole said:
What?? I can't think of any other turntable that has been tweaked more than an LP 12 by the manufacturer themselves.

linn do know a bit about making turntables after all, probably more than most on this forum.
Click to expand...

I'm going to try to explain something I hope you can understand. There are 2 kinds of audio designers/companies. One kind is on the side of audiophiles and they are open sourced. They encourage experimentation with their gear, they believe that the search for the right sound is elusive. They also usually give excellent performance to price ratio's and are known for being nice guys that are often the guy that picks up the phone when you call their company.

The other is closed sourced, believes their is only one road that leads to Rome, discourages every path but their own, is cut off from the audiophile community at large, demands total alligence to their single mind and charges whatever they want for membership in their clubs and says if your experience with their product was not better than everyone else's then you did it wrong.

Try to understand Avole that many who have a problem with Linn are not talking just about the TT they make. But rather see them and have seen them as a threat to our hobby and have for years.

Marc mc
 
As I've already said, it's marketing, it's a legitimate business model, although most business models are that fall short of extortion. Whal Linn do is no different to what Apple is doing, what Microsoft tried, what IBM did etc etc.

It isn't killing the hobby either, just the reverse. Turntables are flourishing, due in no small part to Linn, Technics (now sadly left) Rega, Pro-ject et al, and the choice, especially of high end decks, seems to grow all the time.

If anything is killing the hobby at the moment it is A/V the mp3/ipod generation but, above all, it was the CD back in the eighties that nearly killed vinyl, and even now it isn't a tenth the size it was. Linn is assuredly is not and was assuredly not a part of that, and the high end, to which they firmly belong now, seems to be doing pretty well.
 
avole said:
As I've already said, it's marketing, it's a legitimate business model, although most business models are that fall short of extortion. Whal Linn do is no different to what Apple is doing, what Microsoft tried, what IBM did etc etc.

It isn't killing the hobby either, just the reverse. Turntables are flourishing, due in no small part to Linn, Technics (now sadly left) Rega, Pro-ject et al, and the choice, especially of high end decks, seems to grow all the time.

If anything is killing the hobby at the moment it is A/V the mp3/ipod generation but, above all, it was the CD back in the eighties that nearly killed vinyl, and even now it isn't a tenth the size it was. Linn is assuredly is not and was assuredly not a part of that, and the high end, to which they firmly belong now, seems to be doing pretty well.
Click to expand...

I don't care much for the companies you mentioned either.

To compare Rega or Project with Linn is a Joke. Roy Gandy and Ivor are polar opposites.

If you think the high end and our hobby is anyway near what was happening in the 80's, you were not there. I fear many today confuse an Internet hobby with with what we used to do in person.

Marc mc
 
Pio1980 said:
I miss the '80s scene.
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Me too. The days of Ed Meitner, Michael Wright, Vic Sima and others at audio stores. And spending an entire Saturday afternoon listening to Goldmund Reference TT's.

Our hobby lost its hub when the stores shut down. Forget the the big city stores. I used to hear Naim, Oracle, Kef, Rogers, Bryston, Sugden, Quad, Mission and others at stores in little towns all over Ontario in the 80's and early 90's.

I'm lucky I still know some big dealers from back then. I can here the top gear from Boulder, dCs, ARC, JM Labs, Krell etc anytime I want. But the gear at the tier one step down used to be everywhere. Today we have guys asking for advice on what amp to buy from guys on the web when they themselves have never heard either. It's rediculous to think this is a healthy hobby today.



Marc mc
 
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marc mc said:
I don't care much for the companies you mentioned either.

To compare Rega or Project with Linn is a Joke. Roy Gandy and Ivor are polar opposites.

If you think the high end and our hobby is anyway near what was happening in the 80's, you were not there. I fear many today confuse an Internet hobby with with what we used to do in person.

Marc mc
Click to expand...
Who is comparing companies? I think you have misunderstood my point. I also don't see where I've said the high end is near what it was, just the reverse. It has shrunk as did the rest of the industry for the reasons I cited. However, albeit very much diminished, compared to the budget and middle it is doing well. That's not just in turntables, but amplifiers, CD players, speakers etc. Have a look at the Munich HiFi show info to see what I mean. In a much smaller market overall it is doing comparatively well.

Anyway, I don't think you can point the finger of blame at one relatively small company when, in fact, their survival helped that of the hobby. You can't ignore the impact of CD firstly, then A/V and now mp3.

Hope that clarifies things a bit. Now, back on track :) .
 
Yes, now back on track. This isn't the place for Linn bashing or debate on the state of high-end audio in general, let's respect the OP and keep it somewhat on topic.

If you want to debate high-end audio (don't think we need even more Linn bashing), please start another thread.

Thanks.
 
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