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Record clamps: Ok, consider me converted.

Fair enough but we are having a discussion on the sound quality of the design. And not if it ever caught on. If your actual experience with platterless tables has led you to a negative conclusion then I'm sure all of us would be interested in the gear and methods you tried it on.

Your post stated that you felt that if the design was any good, then

My post was was to show the the limited understanding of that position. Especially when it comes to things audio.

marc mc

Ed was always thinking outside the box , with some very good results. I also did the label cut out thing back in the day , but the cork dots thing seemed to sound better to me ? btw we made the boards for his gear back when he started out , pic's in an early UHF mag. Always enjoyed his visits at the shop . Was he not involved with Amber amps before Meitner ?

I agree with both of you. Sometimes, you have to trust your own ears in regards to progressive ideas. I have tried the Reso-Mat on my Basis TT vs the clamp that came with the table as well as just the record on the acrylic platter and prefer the Reso-Mat. I believe Mapleshade Records also touts their own version of the Reso-Mat; raised dots of sorts. One aspect of the Reso-Mat that I like is that the raised cones are made of virtually the same type of material as the record itself. I challenge anyone to take a chance for $50 and try one. You may just be pleasantly surprised.
 
I may give it a shot, I'll try the the cork dots first to see if its worth persuing further.

Also, why vinyl dots? It seems like if there is any sort of motor vibration it would lead to the record chattering on top of them and possibly damaging the record, especially on 180g records (more momentum behind each chatter).
 
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puck hole

Ive been reading the threads lately on clamps, weights, and the back and forth surrounding them. As I have a suspended table, the consensus was to go with a clamp, and the michell seemed to be the favorite. However, I didn't want to shell out $60 plus shipping. So I let it go for a while.

Then I realized that I do have a drill, and $3 for a hockey puck. So I figured I'd give it a shot.

Wow. This is much, much better. I'll try to list my reactions as I'm using it for the first time now.
- The music is at once more lush and more detailed. It sweeps over you and commands your attention as a wave of sound. Yet there is significantly more detail available at the same time.
- Bass is almost overwhelmingly present and defined on modern albums.
- this does more to have the speakers "disappear" than anything I've tried so far
- soundstage is much much larger
- the system is reaching lower on the frequency scale, and reproducing more loe frequency detail
- instruments and notes are much better defined
- speakers are working in harmony better. Ie the stereo mixing is more easily discerned.
- highs are more distinct. Cymbal attack and decay is noticeably improved. Fingers and picks on strings and other details are more present

The only concern I have is that on modern albums (synthesized bass) the bass is so in your face that it's almost fatiguing. Will have to see how that develops through time.

So I wasn't really against clamps per se. Just very in favor of them now.

I was asking about drilling the hole in the puck slightly smaller, because it seemed to me that if the puck fit loose then there would be no clamping effect, also wondering how important it was to get the hole precisely centered but was hoping for a comment from the person who started the puck idea.
 
FWIW, I like a little tight with the broad area the puck provides, less likely to 'dish' the record upward with excess pressure but that could contribute the "Meitner Effect", no? Either way it will affect the sound.
Have fun!
 
I may give it a shot, I'll try the the cork dots first to see if its worth persuing further.

Also, why vinyl dots? It seems like if there is any sort of motor vibration it would lead to the record chattering on top of them and possibly damaging the record, especially on 180g records (more momentum behind each chatter).

This could be a problem with one-piece DD platters which tend to ring without the loose heavy mat to provide lossy damping. Always check with a record in place as it aids damping effect.
 
I was asking about drilling the hole in the puck slightly smaller, because it seemed to me that if the puck fit loose then there would be no clamping effect, also wondering how important it was to get the hole precisely centered but was hoping for a comment from the person who started the puck idea.

i think thats the idea that the puck acts as a clamp and not a weight. I plan to drill just a hair smaller than the spindle thus I will need to give a very very slight push to get it on...
 
The weight contributes to the clamping force. In this case, with puck not being threaded, it will eventually reach 100% clamping force by weight, I would think. IMO, the weight and the contact area of the puck to the record is making the difference.
 
I may give it a shot, I'll try the the cork dots first to see if its worth persuing further.

Also, why vinyl dots? It seems like if there is any sort of motor vibration it would lead to the record chattering on top of them and possibly damaging the record, especially on 180g records (more momentum behind each chatter).

I've been using cork dots on cork on neoprene foam and cork dots on cork on shelf liner on two of my turntables (H/K T-25 and Sanyo Q40) and I'm very happy with the results.
 
Fair enough but we are having a discussion on the sound quality of the design. And not if it ever caught on. If your actual experience with platterless tables has led you to a negative conclusion then I'm sure all of us would be interested in the gear and methods you tried it on.

Your post stated that you felt that if the design was any good, then

My post was was to show the the limited understanding of that position. Especially when it comes to things audio.

marc mc



point taken. but the actual discussion of this thread was clamping devices, and as is typical, this thread ended up going in a totally different direction. i admit i could have phrased my first post differently.

with that in mind......does anyone here currently own a meitner table? if so, can you give us some first-hand feedback on its performance?....good, bad, otherwise?

thanks.
 
point taken. but the actual discussion of this thread was clamping devices, and as is typical, this thread ended up going in a totally different direction. i admit i could have phrased my first post differently.

with that in mind......does anyone here currently own a meitner table? if so, can you give us some first-hand feedback on its performance?....good, bad, otherwise?

thanks.

I have a friend that owned one for a couple years. He said it sounded good but the arm was the weak link. He sold it for a pile before he and I became friends.

I know another guy that owns 2 (this guy is a Meitner fanatic and has an insane amount of his gear). one is working and the other needs a motor replacement. I believe he is looking at the tares. He loves that sound of them and while he is to far for a trip to hear it we have spoken at length about the sound.

I almost bought one a few years back but the fella lived in Quebec and did not want to ship it.

Ed did not make huge amounts of any products because they were sort of out of the mainstream in design and looks. But fortunately most of it ended up staying in Canada so who knows when I might find one.

marc mc
 
This no-platter diversion is relevant to the topic insofar as it concerns the relationship of the record to the mat. The extreme example of record bonding would be the vacuum platter to the alternate extreme of no mat or platter contact with the record.
IMO, a comparison on the same TT with/ without contact would be more informative of the result than just the platterless on it's own. In my own case, trying no contact against hard contact with the excellent stock mat and 2 different felt mat has the no-contact spacer on the stock mat (for best effective platter damping) giving clearly the best result.
 
The Meitner table was never the focus of the articles I read all those years ago. He spoke of the idea not his table. I believe less than 100 of these tables were ever made.

This is the easiest idea to try ever conceived! It also faces the largest level of information drift as well. Meaning that it faces a wall of previous bias from the objective mind.

Pio1980 did something which IMO is very rare in audio. He tried it.

BTW IME Thorens tables seem to really benefit from it. I have owned more than a few over the years and they all shined without the platter. They are also easy to convert for trial, you just take the outer platter ring off and place an equal weight on the top of the record. I had several made years ago, I also had a hub machine that equaled the platter weight etc. trust me you will never put the original outer ring back on!



Marc mc
 
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It was ridiculously easy to make the conversion on my present project TT, I use spacers cut out from jar lids as distribution discs under the weight and put one under the record. It changes the VTA on the upper-end H-K TTs very very little due the the dished mat so it really is "apples-to-apples".
 
Similar to your Pickering mine is a Qysonic Research from Fullerton, CA (long defunct). I think I bought it in the late 70's. I'm going to start using it again for 2 reasons...

1. Very little inpact on TT springs when installing.
2. Does a great job of of attenuating higher frequencies specifically when music is being played on the loud side. Yes it sounds better.

After a few days of critical listening I'm forced to disagree with myself. The clamp adds a 'veil' to the music regardless of the mat I'm using.

I've always replaced records 'on the fly' with the TT turning but while experimenting with the clamp I opted to turn off the TT before placing a new LP and slightly pushing down near the spindle (without the clamp). This for some unknown reason appears to attenuate the higher frequencies without producing the 'veil' effect of the clamp. This method appears to be most effective with my Ring Mat but has no effect with the stock felt mat.

Any comments/observations are appreciated..

Uncle
 
When I first read about this platter mat, I thought the same thing. But, I was intrigued and figured that for around $50 it was worth a try. So I bought one and like it. I tried with a clamp and without a clamp on my Basis turntable. Here is an excerpt from the manufacturer:

Let me start by dispelling a few myths about clamping:

First, a clamp is needed to flatten out warps. Well, it may flatten mild warps at the center of the record, but the outside will still be wavy unless you also use a periphery clamp. What actually happens in practice is you get voids under the vinyl, so some parts of the record are in contact with the platter, other are not. In any case, forcing a warped record flat is bound to strain & distort the shape of the grooves so you will get an inconsistency across the record. I find most good setups will play moderately warped records with no problem.

Second, clamping is necessary for good bass. For those that may say clamping a record improves bass, I say think again. Bass is more bloated so may appear increased. Again, all you are hearing with a clamp is colouration & reflections.

Third, a clamp is necessary to prevent record slippage. I had set up a measuring device to test this theory, played a whole record side @ 2g with a Paratrace stylus (much drag) to find to my surprise no movement occurred.

Enter the Reso-Mat. The idea with this mat is to have absolutely no influence on the record. It sits on cones with minimal contact with no clamping. Vibrations from the stylus are free to dissipate in the open air with no reflections. There is nothing to dampen the record either.

The net result is a super clear dynamic portrayal of the music with extreme detail retrieval. Treble that seemed harsh or sibilant on some recordings is greatly tamed. Modern recordings done in the digital domain are rendered listenable....& I have a pile of those which I am now rediscovering! Bass becomes cleaner & more distinct. If a deep bass note is present, and your system is capable of producing deep bass, the floors will still shake.

Another effect of this mat is to increase the noise floor. Not only are the cones stopping reflections from the record, but also minimising noises from the environment & drive mechanism of the turntable, be it motor or bearing, from getting through to the stylus. Less external noise has the effect of opening & widening the soundstage.

I have to say this mat represents a good time spent in R & D with different cone materials. Wood was rejected, for instance, as the bass disappeared! The material used for the cones gave the best results over a wide range of materials. The mat has been extensively tried in the field, & all testers have rejected their traditional rubber/acrylic/cork/whatever mats & clamp is favour of the Reso-Mat.

Got to say that

First
this is taken too literally. The clamp is to reduce warps, not flatten. They are to hold the record more rigidly. "Distorting the shape of the grooves"? You have pictures to prove this? If the record is warped then it stands to reason that some grooves are already distorted. The record was made in a flat condition - stamped.

Second and Third
this is superfluous bull. "Again, all you are hearing with a clamp is colouration & reflections." Where is the starting point for this statement? What is the "0" point? Have you used RtR sub masters to compare to the various mat/weight/clamp material configurations as a basis?
You are seriously mentioning slippage? Not worth a comment.

Having spent many working days (in succession) listening to many different materials including cork, glass, felt, metal, leather, acrylic, rubber, synthetics, cardboard (different types) in any material we could cut a mat, both with weights, a clamp and nothing at all. This was tried on LP12's, JBE, Pinks, Regas, Thorens, Technics and Michells. (we had retail stores under the umbrella with agencies for all the previous)

The one thing I can say is that no one thing suits all, mat wise. A clamp was preferred in more than 68% of the cases with different mixes of mats and turntables. Having been a party to the launch and marketing of one of the most successful accessories and longest lasting in manufacture ever, the Michell clamp, you had to try it for yourself. If it wasn't for you, fair enough.

Michell tried his turntables with a number of different "pointed pods" materials on the Reference series including plastic and aluminium etc.. When at Thorens I tried numerous configurations.

I am not decrying the Reso-mat, I am only saying that Bull doesn't inspire me.

Approaching things from a purely physics point of view, which I think is too blinkered in thinking, or just to be different and controversial. You might get the top end right at the expense of other frequencies and visa versa.

As an aside, I shall only go off topic enough to say that PIO1980 knows my thinking on mat design.
What do you think PIO1980, shall we publish those drawings for all to see?

Regards
Pete
 
Hi Pete, good to see you again! The lack of solid data on vibrational interface behavior is indeed exasperating and the varied objective results confusing. My recent experiments with the Meitner floating record matless/platterless concept has really made me question my understanding of accepted conventions concerning record/mat interface behavior.
As far as showing your hand with specifics, thinking it over I don't want you to burn any bridges to future possibilities at this time. I think we can say that it relates to a particular simple relatively low-cost effective vacuum hold-down platter mat concept.
 
Just found this thread, I always loved the Transcriptor/Mitchell TT's with the small dots on them. The Meitner table was fascinating as well, as I've always been attracted to the "unique" things in this world. So far I gather that the platterless concept does work well?

For those that are familiar to the Meitner, what is the chrome rod that sticks out horizontally from under the marble/granite base ? You can see it in the video that was posted before.
 
Hobie1dog,

I have done Pio1980's mods and can vouch for him that it works very, very well on the h/k t60. It is truly amazing what comes out of this modest tt.

Dave
 
Hobie1dog,

I have done Pio1980's mods and can vouch for him that it works very, very well on the h/k t60. It is truly amazing what comes out of this modest tt.

Dave

I guess he is my man, as I just hooked up a H/K T60C on Saturday in my Office system so that I can transfer all my LPs over to my PC. Can you fill me in? Or do I need to contact him?
 
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