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Record clamps: Ok, consider me converted.

Pio1980 said:
Compare the audible sound coming off the disc with no amplification with this device and with the standard full-contact/clamped record. The better damped disc should be quieter without 'peakiness' to the sound. The peakiness will be (a) resonance mode(s).
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Meitner spoke of that very test. It actually proved his point. The reason you hear more with less contact points is because the energy is being release into the air. His position was when a mat is employed this energy is partially absorbed, partially reflected and partially remains on the disc. This produces a bloating or exaggeration to bass and a deadening to highs, limiting dynamic range and subtle harmonics. But of equal importance is the noise floor is lowered due the discs releasing energy and that surface notice is greatly reduced. he stressed that the reason surface noise is far higher with a mat is because of the reflection of this energy coming back up and exaggerating it. He stressed that while surface noise was the most obvious example of this energy return, that it was occurring all the time. And that the only way to get rid of this echo was to have nothing touching the record except at the label.

Marc mc
 
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marc mc said:
And that the only way to get rid of this echo was to have nothing touching the record except at the label.

Marc mc
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But...but...I wan't a stylus touching the r-r-record too.

:P

I don't play horribly warped records, just some with a bit of a wave in it. It would probably be better if there were 4 cones arranged in a square halfway between the six on the outside 6 and inside 3. That would help keep warped/wavy records from skipping and thin and floppy disks (I hate these far more than warped records) from sagging in the middle.
 
its better implementation of physics to have the disc contact the entire surface of the platter. sota and vpi use acrylic mats built onto the platter (and an integral clamp in the case of vpi) to interface with the vinyl to drain off the vibrations emaniating fromt the stylus/groove interface.

a clamp completes this system of rigidity. vacuum hold down is used by sota and basis to further the cause. read RH's review of the basis in this month's tas for a description of impeccable sound. some of the advantages used by these manufacturers can be had inexpensively by using clamps, periphery rings and good mats.
 
What is tas? I'll look for the article.

I also have a piece of leather that I plan to try as a mat, and will report back on it.
 
marc mc said:
Meitner spoke of that very test. It actually proved his point. The reason you hear more with less contact points is because the energy is being release into the air. His position was when a mat is employed this energy is partially absorbed, partially reflected and partially remains on the disc. This produces a bloating or exaggeration to bass and a deadening to highs, limiting dynamic range and subtle harmonics. But of equal importance is the noise floor is lowered due the discs releasing energy and that surface notice is greatly reduced. he stressed that the reason surface noise is far higher with a mat is because of the reflection of this energy coming back up and exaggerating it. He stressed that while surface noise was the most obvious example of this energy return, that it was occurring all the time. And that the only way to get rid of this echo was to have nothing touching the record except at the label.

Marc mc
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This has led me to the most counter-intuitive audio experiment I've tried yet, totally decoupling the disc from the platter which is possible with my H-K. I normally use a 3 inch disc under the weight, which can also be placed under the record to ever-so-slightly lift it off the mat with the weight in place. Therefore I can play the record full-hard-contact with the mat or fully floating off the mat with almost no change of VTA.
This should be interesting..
 
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It's official...the 'minimal record -to- platter contact' approach has just rendered obsolete all those ££££'s 'boutique' turntables with the 3 feet thick platters. :D:D:D

Hm..Perhaps rega got the right 'balance' first time round ?

(lightweight plinth for minimal energy storage...glass platter for inertia and wool mat for minimal coupling but consistant record support due to its natural mechanical compliance ?)

myself i like to clamp 'thin' records when making archival recordings,even if they are flat...it adds some solidity and definition to those lower notes..
1980's K-Tel greatest hits anyone ??? :music:
 
actually its the feb issue of tas #220 on page 20.

this isnt the review in question but its harley reviewing another basis. it will give you an idea of his technical prowess and ability to express findings in a review.

below is another review of a basis by another reviewer. these are not inexpensive tables but some ideas can be gotten from reading these reviews.

http://basisaudio.com/docs/Seydor_2200.pdf
 
marc mc said:
I had someone tell me about the Reso-mat a few months back. It is actually a very old idea with the mitchell skeleton probable being the most known table to employ it. I have a buddy that runs that table.

Ed Meitner wrote a series of articles over 20 years ago that are pretty much word for word as the post above and did the high fi mag tour with his AT-1 platterless table. I took a Thorens 318 and turned it into a platterless version after reading the Meitner articles, I took a ton of flack for even suggesting platterless back then. I shocked a few people with the music that table could make sitting on a Sound Organization stand. A couple years ago i rebuilt that table and currently us it as a fully suspensionless platterless table with and Alphason arm and a Clearaudio Aurum Beta S cart. In that case with no platter at all i use a massive weight to replace the platters inertia. My Lenco has the cork pods and a light weight.




Marc mc
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So now I have an experiment going with a "platterless" configuration floating the record slightly off the mat of my mod'ed H-K T60. Is there a reason other than counter-intuitive outrageousness that Ed Meitner's concept never went anywhere. I read a Stereophile interview with EM and he states that his approach is from a physics perspective and thus has my attention as I take physics over mystical BS every time.
 
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Pio1980 said:
So now I have an experiment going with a "platterless" configuration floating the record slightly off the mat of my mod'ed H-K T60. Is there a reason other than counter-intuitive outrageousness that Ed Meitner's concept never went anywhere. I read a Stereophile interview with EM and he states that his approach is from a physics perspective and thus has my attention as I take physics over mystical BS every time.
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What I did with this concept was to just measure distortion compared to a thick rubber mat. It was significantly higher with this configuration that caused high frequency warps. And to me it´s all about distortion.
gusten
 
jgordon said:
Decided to test the weight vs. clamp theory. As I carefully constructed this system as a clamp, rather than a weight (read: I drilled the hole too small, so it's very snug on the spindle) it allows me to attach it to the platter without clamping the record in place. I twist the puck onto the spindle, leaving room between it and the record.

With the weight (and not the clamping force) of the puck, the sound is somewhat improved over stock, but the majority of the improvement becomes apparent when you use the puck to force the record against the mat. So both arguments hold water, but the clamping effect is contributing more to the improvement.

As to Linn not recommending a weight, I can understand their not wanting 2+ pounds on the bearing. This is a hockey puck, weighing in at 5.5 - 6 ounces (less the mass I removed with the drill). I plan to take another puck (bought a 3-pack for $5.99) to a local woodworking shop, and ask them to throw it on a lathe. Then I can make sure the hole is centered, perhaps take off the texture and the "made in slovakia" imprint from the sides, and maybe even drill out some lightening holes to ensure maximum longevity in the bearing.
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"Made in Slovakia"....very sad. We used to produce our own pucks but in 1967 a visiting team from Holland brought Dutch Hockey Puck Disease to Canada and devastated our industry! :D
 
gusten said:
What I did with this concept was to just measure distortion compared to a thick rubber mat. It was significantly higher with this configuration that caused high frequency warps. And to me it´s all about distortion.
gusten
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Of course the concept pre-supposes a more-or-less perfectly flat record. I can easily run the H-K either way, fully clamped or floating just by selecting on which side of the disc the spacer disc resides during play.
 
Pio1980 said:
So now I have an experiment going with a "platterless" configuration floating the record slightly off the mat of my mod'ed H-K T60. Is there a reason other than counter-intuitive outrageousness that Ed Meitner's concept never went anywhere. I read a Stereophile interview with EM and he states that his approach is from a physics perspective and thus has my attention as I take physics over mystical BS every time.
Click to expand...

Meitner was making the rounds with his AT-1 at a time when audiophiles were doing their level best to rid the world of vinyl playback. Ed moved ahead with digital and we all know what that resulted in (if you ever heard his Bidat you know what I mean)

The first article I read was actually an interview with Andrew Marshall of Audio Ideas Guide. And Ed recommended that people who wanted to try it simply take off their mat, cut out the label of an old record and place their albums on the label. This raised it enough to hear the improvement. Andrew did it with his Heybrook TT2 and left it that way for years if memeory serves.

I started there and have always embraced the idea in one form or another in several TT's. The idea for the most part has been rejected by most but rarely from people that actually try it. I have done several head to heads with a variety of tables I have owned and feel that Ed's main points were valid.

marc mc
 
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whereas meitner's emm sacd player is tops, i dont think much of his platterless approach. he made some pretty good little amps/preamps and then got absorbed into digital. he has the right idea there using sacd, wish i could afford it.
 
I didn't think much of the platterless either and never did, being a platter mat hardcore sort. However the proof is in the result and there is something very intriguing going on here re a marked 'openness', enhanced clarity, and HF extension with detailing and focus notably enhanced. Live and learn.
 
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Non-damping non-supporting schemes like platterless and felt mats, ect require a damped cover over the TT during play to reduce feedback potential from the speakers. Otherwise sonic colorations that vary with pitch and loudness are likely.
 
I think I'll give it a shot on my Dual 1246. So did you just take the puck and drill a hole slightly smaller than the spindle?
 
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