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Record clamps: Ok, consider me converted.

240sx4u said:
If you stuck a spacer under the record you also changed the VTA of the stylus, keep that in mind too.
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Quite aware, I stated in my posting that due to the designed-in dishing of the H-K mat the spacer essentially doesn't alter average outer-area VTA on that TT. A couple mms off the mat shouldn't be too significant in any case but YMMV. Also do understand a weight or clamp is essential with this approach.
 
Pio1980 said:
Quite aware, I stated in my posting that due to the designed-in dishing of the H-K mat the spacer essentially doesn't alter average outer-area VTA on that TT. A couple mms off the mat shouldn't be too significant in any case but YMMV. Also do understand a weight or clamp is essential with this approach.
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I assumed you had accounted for that, but wanted to clarify with others that may try this with a flat platter.
 
Very good, thank you for doing so. Also those interested observers please note the comment on necessity of clamping and an acoustically damped covering, a dust cover with a small book resting on it should do.
 
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well if there is zero risk for my old Thorens 150.. I am going to spend the 5.99 on a hockey puck and give it a try... Will make the hole just a bit smaller than the spindle....
I am not comfortable with adding weight.... great thread BYW!
 
Pio1980 said:
I didn't think much of the platterless either and never did, being a platter mat hardcore sort. However the proof is in the result and there is something very intriguing going on here re a marked 'openness', enhanced clarity, and HF extension with detailing and focus notably enhanced. Live and learn.
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Agreed re. the platter-less turntable. If there was any substance to Meitner's claims, the design would have lived on and all other turntable manufacturers would have followed suit.....NONE DID.

So much for that.
 
Pio1980 said:
Quite aware, I stated in my posting that due to the designed-in dishing of the H-K mat the spacer essentially doesn't alter average outer-area VTA on that TT. A couple mms off the mat shouldn't be too significant in any case but YMMV. Also do understand a weight or clamp is essential with this approach.
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The stock H/K mat is dished? Why? All models? (Not that I'm using their mat any more).
 
yaya97 said:
well if there is zero risk for my old Thorens 150.. I am going to spend the 5.99 on a hockey puck and give it a try... Will make the hole just a bit smaller than the spindle....
I am not comfortable with adding weight.... great thread BYW!
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If the hole is smaller than the spindle, exactly how to you plan to use it? Hockey pucks don't stretch a whole lot.
 
iLUVanalog said:
Agreed re. the platter-less turntable. If there was any substance to Meitner's claims, the design would have lived on and all other turntable manufacturers would have followed suit.....NONE DID.

So much for that.
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Our hobby has rarely strayed from proven formula's for making money. And that means traditional thinking! The high end takes what the mainstream will tolerate and improves it. This often results in very tradional thinking even amoung audiophiles.

Here is a couple of examples of genius that never flew on a large scale! Does that mean the ideas or sound quality was not up to standards because everyone else never ran with it?

Mike Wright of Dayton- Wright used SFL gas in bags inside his speakers.

Alan Shaw uses thin walled cabs for his Harbeth speakers.

Ed Meitner used a Floating Charge power supply for 35 amp peaks in my amps.

Peter McAlister uses 12DG6 Horiztontal sweep tubes and makes amps that stun everyone.

PMC uses 75mm dome midrange drivers unlike everyone else.

Phil Clements used 7" planer magnetic drivers for tweeters. He was the only one I know and the 4 I have are better to my ears than any dome I have heard.

Steve Nugent proved why 1m was the absolute worst length for a 75ohm cable. But guess what everyone uses.

FTR Ed Meitner also made a TT that used a stream of water and sonar to read the grooves!

marc mc
 
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iLUVanalog said:
Agreed re. the platter-less turntable. If there was any substance to Meitner's claims, the design would have lived on and all other turntable manufacturers would have followed suit.....NONE DID.

So much for that.
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I always thought the notion was utter nonsense along with felt mats and the like but as I said, live and learn. It has altered my long-held notions of what constitutes basic competent playback physics. I suspect the concept was just too radical to be taken seriously without ears-on auditioning and few had enuff interest or curiosity to be bothered aside from this having been the dawn of shifting interest toward CD digital playback and the twilight of LP playback.
 
Pio1980 said:
I always thought the notion was utter nonsense along with felt mats and the like but as I said, live and learn. It has altered my long-held notions of what constitutes basic competent playback physics. I suspect the concept was just too radical to be taken seriously without ears-on auditioning and few had enuff interest or curiosity to be bothered aside from this having been the dawn of shifting interest toward CD digital playback and the twilight of LP playback.
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Great post!

How about sitting with a good friend who was also one of Toronto's analog guru's in the 80's, and telling him about this article I had read about platterless playback while we listened to the big Maplenoll turntable. You know the one with the 100lb marble platter riding on an air bearing.

Now thats a big pile of irony.

marc mc
 
I'm fortunate that my present project TT is so competent and so adaptable.
This seems a good try for the Technics clamshell 'P'-mount TTs with integral clamping but their platters need the disc to be properly resonance damped due to their attached mats being ineffective without.
 
marc mc said:
Our hobby has rarely strayed from proven formula's for making money. And that means traditional thinking! The high end takes what the mainstream will tolerate and improves it. This often results in very tradional thinking even amoung audiophiles.

Here is a couple of examples of genius that never flew on a large scale! Does that mean the ideas or sound quality was not up to standards because everyone else never ran with it?

Mike Wright of Dayton- Wright used SFL gas in bags inside his speakers.

Alan Shaw uses thin walled cabs for his Harbeth speakers.

Ed Meitner used a Floating Charge power supply for 35 amp peaks in my amps.

Peter McAlister uses 12DG6 Horiztontal sweep tubes and makes amps that stun everyone.

PMC uses 75mm dome midrange drivers unlike everyone else.

Phil Clements used 7" planer magnetic drivers for tweeters. He was the only one I know and the 4 I have are better to my ears than any dome I have heard.

Steve Nugent proved why 1m was the absolute worst length for a 75ohm cable. But guess what everyone uses.

FTR Ed Meitner also made a TT that used a stream of water and sonar to read the grooves!




OK....as pointless as this is, my focus was ONLY on the Meitner table and the fact that it no longer exists. Well-intentioned though it might have been, again......it never caught on and.....it no longer exists.
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iLUVanalog said:
OK....as pointless as this is, my focus was ONLY on the Meitner table and the fact that it no longer exists. Well-intentioned though it might have been, again......it never caught on and.....it no longer exists.
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Fair enough but we are having a discussion on the sound quality of the design. And not if it ever caught on. If your actual experience with platterless tables has led you to a negative conclusion then I'm sure all of us would be interested in the gear and methods you tried it on.

Your post stated that you felt that if the design was any good, then
iLUVanalog said:
"the design would have lived on and all other turntable manufacturers would have followed suit.....NONE DID."
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My post was was to show the the limited understanding of that position. Especially when it comes to things audio.

marc mc
 
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Well you made me go looking for a Hockey Puck at Goodwill, I see them there all the time but have seen one in the last couple of days. In fact 2 days ago I found a Hockey trouph, yesterday I found 2 Hockey helmets. Today a 49 cent Hockey Puck. Going to go downstairs and drill a hole and give it a try.
 
Well not sure if it was wishful thinking, but there certainly seems to be an improvement.
I will have to keep testing.
I might have to invest in a really one if a hockey puck can do this.
Listened to ELO's mister blues sky both with and without and with is better.
 
marc mc said:
Meitner was making the rounds with his AT-1 at a time when audiophiles were doing their level best to rid the world of vinyl playback. Ed moved ahead with digital and we all know what that resulted in (if you ever heard his Bidat you know what I mean)

The first article I read was actually an interview with Andrew Marshall of Audio Ideas Guide. And Ed recommended that people who wanted to try it simply take off their mat, cut out the label of an old record and place their albums on the label. This raised it enough to hear the improvement. Andrew did it with his Heybrook TT2 and left it that way for years if memeory serves.

I started there and have always embraced the idea in one form or another in several TT's. The idea for the most part has been rejected by most but rarely from people that actually try it. I have done several head to heads with a variety of tables I have owned and feel that Ed's main points were valid.

marc mc
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Ed was always thinking outside the box , with some very good results. I also did the label cut out thing back in the day , but the cork dots thing seemed to sound better to me ? btw we made the boards for his gear back when he started out , pic's in an early UHF mag. Always enjoyed his visits at the shop . Was he not involved with Amber amps before Meitner ?
 
Well, I don't have a hockey puck around but I had a large rubber stopper around in similar size as the puck, just little taller. Tried it on my rega planar 3, and it seems to tighten up the bass along with other improvements. Now, I better get the real thing, hopefully in red to match the rega plinth.

It's just fun to play.
 
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