Record cleaning based on science

[Ken Boyd]

I wonder if this would be a good solution for the ultrasound cleaner tank? Can you give me your opinion on that?

 

[Satcom123]

Wow do records get that dirty?

 

[GeoKost]

Gibsonian, thou art welcome.

As you can tell, I'm a peace-loving guy.

I wonder if Vince can put this formula in laymen's amounts?

I'm the type to end up in the hospital trying to mix this stuff up.

That would be a good idea, like how many drops or teaspoons to a gallon of distilled water. :yes:

George.

 

[guest110]

I wonder if this would be a good solution for the ultrasound cleaner tank? Can you give me your opinion on that?

Yes, the detergent mix would be great. If instead you use an ionic detergent like SDS, it might get a little foamy though.

Wow do records get that dirty?

This is for old thrifty finds, etc. once you do the first treatment, you will not need the enzyme step anymore, unless you handle your records with dirty hands. I'll post some micrographs and you'll be appalled at what can bind to the grooves.

That would be a good idea, like how many drops or teaspoons to a gallon of distilled water. :yes:

George.

In science we don't deal with drops as they vary with the tip size and liquid viscosity. But we're washing records here, not cloning genes, so I'll give it a shot. The enzyme mix is easy, just empty 1 capsule into 1 gallon of water and mix until all is dissolved (don't skake to mix as you can denature the enzymes). Reminds me, I need to add a note, do not let this solution dry on the record surface! Also, shelf life of this mix is a few hours so discard when done. For the detergent mix, add 1 small drop of Triton X100 to one gallon distilled water and mix. As I mentioned, this stuff is difficult to work with so be patient,. If you first take the drop and mix it with a teaspoon of water to break it up before adding to the gallon it will be much easier. Note, you can buy 500mls of triton off Amazon for $10, that's enough for about 5000 batches....a lifetime of washes. If you want it buffered (optional but recommended) add 3/4 cup of 10x TBE to this gallon. This solution will last months if kept clean.
hope this helps

 

[guest110]

That is a problem then - no buffering is bad as all the enzymes are hydolases AND in particular will change the pH of the solution over time (even just sitting). Also w/o pH buffering most enzymes have stability measured in minutes in a cocktail unless you are dealing with RNAase and other fairly stable enzymes). Basically, you are wasting the enzymes as they are not doing anything.

Not really. These are robust enzymes. Granted, we are not getting optimal activities, but they are indeed active as we have measured them. In an unbuffered environment, enzymes work in micro environments of suitable pH. Don't forget, these enzymes exist in nature and are active in very harsh and varying environments. Just look at the serine proteases as one example. Similar mixes are used throughout the cleaning industry. Your laundry detergent likely has proteases in it. These work under nasty conditions. the meat tenderizer you can buy off the shelf is papain and works as you sprinkle it on like salt. As said earlier, I'm not inventing anything here....mobile fidelity, nitty gritty, walker audio, etc. are all offering enzyme solutions now for record cleaning ...because they work. . I am just offering a DIY option to save people money. I'm also suggesting to start with dry enzymes as the activity is much higher. If you don't believe it, then don't use it, but it is becoming the industry standard for cleaning really dirty records.

 

[guest110]

More than likely the source is Apsergillus Niger. Commercial enzyme concentrates have scavengers and preservatives to keep them stable but still the shelf life is measured in months OT.

Actually, most of the enzymes in the digestive capsules are from plant and animal sources. The largest component is proteases, specifically bromelain (from pineapples) and papain ( from papaya). I know a little about papain, as I was the one who cloned the gene for it in 1986. It can retain activity for years in its dry form.

 

[Sillver79]

Great article that answer why I cannot get some old finger prints of records no matter who hard I try. I try to get some of the ingredients.

 

[onwardjames]

Actually, most of the enzymes in the digestive capsules are from plant and animal sources. The largest component is proteases, specifically bromelain (from pineapples) and papain ( from papaya). I know a little about papain, as I was the one who cloned the gene for it in 1986. It can retain activity for years in its dry form.

I have used papain to pass drug test, as I enjoy my greens, and refuse to let silly prohibition prevent me from it.

Put two papain capsules under my tongue, let them break down, spit into the cup, urinate, and you're golden.

Seems the papain breaks down THC molecules. Hasn't failed me or a buddy yet.

Off topic, but I think that's awesome, you and botrytis are very knowledgeable about this stuff, and it helps us Luddites spend our money wiser.

I have a SpinClean, and it is okay, but after using the glue, I typically see even cleaner records, tho I'm now concerned with removing the "plasticizers".

SpinClean also doesn't seem to remove the "cracklies" like the glue. Good for bulk washing, tho.

 

[Pio1980]

You been a bad boy, bro James?[emoji33]

Good discussion btw. Wish I could get my record guy to quit pinching the albums out of their jackets and leaving his prints on the first tracks, but he's a creature of old habits.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[onwardjames]

You been a bad boy, James?[emoji33]

Happy Sunday, Pio!

Some might consider me doing my thing at night after the missus is asleep, and enjoying music in 3-d as morally wrong.

They'd be full of it. :thmbsp:



Don't know about you fellas, but I think after the holidays I'm gonna order these ingredients and give it a whirl.

Seems cheap enough. Hell, I been using the scrubbing bubbles that was mentioned a few months back, with varying degrees of success. Works most of the time.

My problem is, I spot an odd duck album with some grime for 50 cents or so, and see it as a challenge. :yes::scratch2:

 

[guest110]

Your records will likely be fine after glue treatment. They only become more brittle after plasticizer removal. The half life of a PVC record is about 80 years. Even if you cut that in half, is it a concern to you? For some yes, others no. It's how clean they play that is important. There's a guy in Europe that has a record "mask" that you peel, just like the glue, but he says it is safe. He won't tell me what he is using, but I will find out.

Attached are some micropics I took this morning of the same region of a record: 1. As found at yard sale, 2. After step 1, the high pressure water wash, and 3. After the step 2/3 cycle (enzyme and detergent treatment). I used increasing magnification so you can see what is happening in the grooves.

 

[GeoKost]

In science we don't deal with drops as they vary with the tip size and liquid viscosity. But we're washing records here, not cloning genes, so I'll give it a shot. The enzyme mix is easy, just empty 1 capsule into 1 gallon of water and mix until all is dissolved (don't skake to mix as you can denature the enzymes). Reminds me, I need to add a note, do not let this solution dry on the record surface! Also, shelf life of this mix is a few hours so discard when done. For the detergent mix, add 1 small drop of Triton X100 to one gallon distilled water and mix. As I mentioned, this stuff is difficult to work with so be patient,. If you first take the drop and mix it with a teaspoon of water to break it up before adding to the gallon it will be much easier. Note, you can buy 500mls of triton off Amazon for $10, that's enough for about 5000 batches....a lifetime of washes. If you want it buffered (optional but recommended) add 3/4 cup of 10x TBE to this gallon. This solution will last months if kept clean.
hope this helps

Thank you Vince1, that I can relate to. My chemistry notes of high school days are long gone now.

I also want to clean up that old musty smell on those album covers to. :yes: Now to look for an ozone machine.

George.

 

[luckydog]

Here's some oldschool science, concerning an unforeseen side-effect of cleaning vinyl. In this paper, Pardee discloses how many cleaning agents can actually raise stylus-groove friction after cleaning - he associates this with removing natural lubricants. Increasing friction is not a good thing IME, for obvious reasons and some not so obvious such as increasing certain types of surface noise........

http://www.audiomods.co.uk/papers/pardee_recordfriction.PDF

Did you measure before/after friction using your cleaning method perchance, Vince1 ? If not, could you follow the method described and report results ? awprint:

 

[GeoKost]

Increasing friction is not a good thing IME, for obvious reasons and some not so obvious such as increasing certain types of surface noise........

And so is playing a dirty album.

The article stated testing mint albums.

George.

 

[drtool]

For me, best thread of the year Thanks Vivce1. After I picked up my 17F I have really been double ocd on the fastest and best method to clean my used records. When I hit one out of the park (clean record that I knew was worthless) I was so hooked. Studying my old chemistry books. Finger prints, in Charley Brown's voice, AUGHHH. Total fail so far.

 

[GPJeff]

Is this correct?

Methods using Spin Clean:

Step 1: Rinse the LP with tab water from your kitchen sink spray wand (referred to as Rinse with high pressure water).

Step 2. Enzymatic treatment. Dilute the Enzyme cap in to 1 gallon of water. Pour this mixture in to Spin Clean tank. Place record in Spin Clean, use a normal, take out and let record sit for 2-5 mins, caution to not let them dry. Rinse with high pressure water.

Step 3. Detergent wash. Apply Homemade Cleaner using a soft pad, working the fluid in the direction of the grooves. Rinse with high pressure water.

Step 4. Final Rinse. Rinse with distilled water, vacuum. Repeat.

Let record completely air dry before playing or placing in new sleeve.
--------------------
I plan to do steps 1 & 2, then placing in my Ultrasonic Cleaner. I use a modified version of the http://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/home-brew-cleaner-for-vacuum-rcms/ solution.

 

[luckydog]

And so is playing a dirty album.

The article stated testing mint albums.

George.

Yup, I guess the point with Pardee demonstrating that cleaning mint albums can increase friction (depending on agent) is that it eliminates a variable ie contaminated records. However, I have reproduced Pardee's results on both clean and 'used' records - and friction (inc surface noise) can increase in both cases IME. So I reserve cleaning for cases only where strictly necessary, and using agents which don't increase friction - hence my question of Vince1 as to whether he has tested for changes to friction on his regime ?

 

[guest110]

Thanks for the paper luckydog. Frictional forces are something I honestly never considered. If you clean the record to the same state as it was new, then you really aren't changing the frictional force I would think. One nice feature of Triton and the Tergitols is that they are oily. In fact, they are sometimes listed as wetting agents, though they are really detergents. They originated from experiments with oil refining products, hence the patents by Shell Oil and Dow, etc. Hence, if there were a bit of residual Triton left on the record or incorporated into the vinyl, it would actually act as a lubricant, reducing friction. Conversely, treatments that etch or remove plasticizers would be expected to increase friction.

GPJeff: looks good! You don't need the Spinclean, but it helps.
I'm constantly surprised and how much debris is removed by water pressure alone. Indeed, some commercial devices solely use this method. If you have ever seen a master disc being made, you see how they use pressurized water cleaning at each step. You get both physical disruption and large dilution at the same time.


Onward james..I spoke with a colleague this afternoon and am embarking on some experiments next week with some reagents that form masks. I'll keep you posted! I think a one shot protocol would be useful for most collectors.

 

[onwardjames]

Your records will likely be fine after glue treatment. They only become more brittle after plasticizer removal. The half life of a PVC record is about 80 years. Even if you cut that in half, is it a concern to you? For some yes, others no. It's how clean they play that is important. There's a guy in Europe that has a record "mask" that you peel, just like the glue, but he says it is safe. He won't tell me what he is using, but I will find out.
.

Thank you! Hope to find out what your colleague is using.

Are you, in your professional opinion, convinced I'm removing the plasticizers with pvc wood glue placed on them for 8 hours?

This has bothered me, but honestly, while vast, my record collection is really a large pile of el cheapo, beat to hell vinyl. Very few mint ones. Like I said, I buy them because they are a cheap way to experience new music. Maybe half of my records would be snubbed by the average AK'er. The other half are quite nice. I rarely pay more than 2, 3 bucks for a record, tho I've bought some high dollar ones too.

I have a first pressing "White" Beatles album. Recently glued it.

Hope I didn't kill it for play after I'm gone, but the gluing really made it quiet.

This is indeed a fabulous thread. :thmbsp:

 

[onwardjames]

Yup, I guess the point with Pardee demonstrating that cleaning mint albums can increase friction (depending on agent) is that it eliminates a variable ie contaminated records. However, I have reproduced Pardee's results on both clean and 'used' records - and friction (inc surface noise) can increase in both cases IME. So I reserve cleaning for cases only where strictly necessary, and using agents which don't increase friction - hence my question of Vince1 as to whether he has tested for changes to friction on his regime ?

I find this interesting. You must have only minty, new albums.

Not cleaning my little 1k pile of vinyl just isn't a listenable choice.

I do, however, seem to have noticed a few albums where after my regimen of cleaning I thought they were actually noisier.

****, I'm off to spin a cd.