Record cleaning based on science

[onwardjames]

Would that not warp the record!?

Most certainly it would, I phrased that wrong. I meant, does the vinyl age in such a way as standard plastic with relation to the clay in it that dries out, and after being boiled a minute or so, gets rejuvenated. I sometimes wonder if the hot temps in US baths don't help in some way.

Yup, I feel sure that if one might only fully understand what really goes on in PVA treatment of vinyl, there's hope that the effect can be replicated without involving adhesive........awprint:

Me too, and while I cannot add to Vince1's formula for lack of knowledge, I too, can give moral support.


While my vinyl is quite a bit of old yard sale/thrift, I still wish to do NO harm to it.

Superb thread.

I'm on this. I already have begun some experiments. By the end of the week, or maybe after the holidays if my wife doesn't kill me, I'll have a protocol with easily obtainable ingredients. My goal is a peelable film that removes contaminants while not extracting plasticizers nor compromising the integrity of the vinyl. It will be a one step process. I have the basics, just experimenting with additives that will 1. Make the film strong yet pliable, 2. Reduce static charge, 3. Have a workable shelf life, 4. Not leave any particles behind, 5. Actually condition the vinyl (not change or maybe even improve the frictional coefficient), and 6. Speed up drying time (minutes vs hours). I'm confident I'll have something soon. The hardest part is to find a recipe with ingredients that anyone can easily purchase.
If you can think of other desirable properties of such a solution, please let me know!

Tell the wife yes indeed there could be money in it, and no, I am not joking. Should you be unable to procure a list of ingredients for the average joe, you could make it at home, and sell it in old 2 liters or whatever, print out some generic labels, and I will be your very first customer.

 

[GPJeff]

The closest store bought version that is mentioned in this thread that I can think of is the AIVS 3 step record cleaning solution.
Step 0 If needed - Pre-cleaner for large dirt particiles
Step 1 Enzyme Cleaning
Step 2 "Super Cleaner"
Step 3 Ultra Pure Water rinse
http://www.audiointelligent.com/products.htm

This thread's home brew recipe can be done for a lot cheaper.
Step 1 Enzyme Cleaning - 1 cap of Nexazyme w/ 1 gal of water
Step 2 Home Brew Cleaner - suggestion- http://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/home-brew-cleaner-for-vacuum-rcms/
Step 3 Rinse distilled water or cleaner water

 

[hezagenius]

Would the enzyme have any impact on the label adhesive? I'm one of those people that likes to dunk the whole record into the cleaning solution and I've seen almost no ill effect on the labels once they dry. Some red London labels bleed a bit but other than that, nothing of note. I'm wondering if the enzyme additive will somehow weaken the adhesive on the label?

 

[kwatch]

The closest store bought version that is mentioned in this thread that I can think of is the AIVS 3 step record cleaning solution.
Step 0 If needed - Pre-cleaner for large dirt particiles
Step 1 Enzyme Cleaning
Step 2 "Super Cleaner"
Step 3 Ultra Pure Water rinse
http://www.audiointelligent.com/products.htm

This thread's home brew recipe can be done for a lot cheaper.
Step 1 Enzyme Cleaning - 1 cap of Nexazyme w/ 1 gal of water
Step 2 Home Brew Cleaner - suggestion- http://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/home-brew-cleaner-for-vacuum-rcms/
Step 3 Rinse distilled water or cleaner water

"The contents of one Nexazyme capsule is enough to make 1 Liter of enzyme fluid, just mix it in water"

I thought it should be 1 liter, not 1 gallon.

 

[GPJeff]

"The contents of one Nexazyme capsule is enough to make 1 Liter of enzyme fluid, just mix it in water"

I thought it should be 1 liter, not 1 gallon.

Kwatch - I was going by post #25 by Vince1. I see in his report that he calls for 1 cap per liter. I guess that needs to be verified.

 

[guest110]

Sorry for the confusion, my bad. Yes, I originally used 1 capsule per liter. That is mostly overkill so I used half a cap in a liter and it still works for me. So one cap in 1/2 gallon would be close enough, if you are using the Nexazyme product. The more dilute the enzyme, the more time it takes, that's all. Too much and it will stick to the record if not completely dissolved.
The problem with different enzymes is that different units of activity are used to measure them. Also, every supplement has its own mix. We are not trying to be as efficient as possible here and there are varying amounts of organic debris on different records so we are just getting a ballpark amount that works. If you find the treatment not removing enough, increase the incubation time or the amount of enzyme. Just remember not to let it ever dry out. If drying is a problem, add a small (0.01%) of TritonX100 detergent. The enzymes are still active in this and it helps as a surfactant.

The enzymes have no effect on the labels (though the water does).

Update: I will start a new thread next week with the peelable mask results. It is progressing nicely! Everything is water soluble so no residue left behind.

 

[stoutblock]

Good stuff! I have about 300 albums from the 70/80s that have never really been cleaned. Stuff has mostly been in storage for 30 years until a couple of years ago. Some play fine, some do not, go figure.

Quick question, since the enzyme solution has a short shelf life, is it possible to reactivate it with new enzyme powder a few times before you toss it? I will probably buy a gallon of distilled water for this solution and hate to just toss it.

 

[Gridslayer]

Which Triton X-100? I see "Triton X-100 Surfactant 500ml High Purity" and "Triton X-100, Scintillation Grade, 500 Milliliters" ...

 

[guest110]

You don't want the protein content of your solution to accumulate (as it will start to get sticky) so I would say no. Regular water is fine at the enzyme step (many enzymes in fact require ions to do their jobs). Save the distilled for the final wash steps. I'm not sure where people got the notion that tap water is so damaging to records. It is fine as long as it is clear, without precipitates, odor free, and a final distilled/deionized wash is included. Maybe there are some places in the country where tap water is unsuitable (like near fracking operations where you can light the water on fire) but this should be obvious and you can pass your tap water through a charcoal filter (like Britta) if you are worried about it. Most newer drain pipes are PVC and they will hold water and remain undamaged for centuries (extensive testing was done before it became the recommended material for water drains).

Gridslayer: get the less expensive one. Scintillation grade has the best optical purity and is typically expensive as it is used in experiments for light-based measuring of radiation but that doesn't matter to us. Don't be fooled by some vendors calling it a surfactant as it is a non-ionic detergent (like Tween, Brij, Tergitol, etc..).

 

[ripblade]

Update: I will start a new thread next week with the peelable mask results. It is progressing nicely! Everything is water soluble so no residue left behind.

Most of the ground work has already been done. You can read about it here

What would be better for a guy like me would be if the ingredients were easily obtained from everyday products. Say, 50-50 white PVA mixed with Jell-O, with a capful of Bounce for static control... :stupid:

 

[guest110]

Most of the ground work has already been done. You can read about it here

What would be better for a guy like me would be if the ingredients were easily obtained from everyday products. Say, 50-50 white PVA mixed with Jell-O, with a capful of Bounce for static control... :stupid:

Yes, very familiar with Reg's earlier work, and it is quite good, just not optimized for performance, vinyl integrity, or, as you point out, easily obtainable reagents. People get polyvinyl alcohol confused with polyvinyl acetate (both PVA). The former (often used in face peels, or cross-linked to make "slime") is OK on records, the latter (main polymer in wood glue and latex paint), not so much.

 

[luckydog]

People get polyvinyl alcohol confused with polyvinyl acetate (both PVA). The former (often used in face peels, or cross-linked to make "slime") is OK on records, the latter (main polymer in wood glue and latex paint), not so much.

There are two separate issues IMO : vinyl clean and vinyl surface in robust low friction/smooth condition. I doubt the polymer chain plays much part in restoring vinyl surface condition, but perhaps additives or degeneration products do. I think the focus should be on understanding these, because it may well be possible to bring about similar effect without the bulky polymers I hope. What is really needed is a vinyl polymer chemist to profer what is probably simple wisdom as to the likely activities of PVA adhesive in contact with vinyl records, IMO. Seems plausible an additive or by product of curing brings about the effect...... awprint:

 

[onwardjames]

Update: I will start a new thread next week with the peelable mask results. It is progressing nicely! Everything is water soluble so no residue left behind.

PLEASE make sure this thread has that info, I do not want to miss that.

I pulled some records I have glued in the past to play last night. Honestly, they sound better than their 99cent price point, and still seemed flexible and happy. I been gluing for 4 years or so, but sure am anxious to hear the results of your work, perhaps improving my cleaning methods. So cool to have a guy with your skills on board, Vince1. :yes::thmbsp:

 

[quantum 3]

Mold Avenger?

I have tried Mold Avenger a few times, but now that this thread is providing more education, I am curious what they use in it? No ingredients are listed, any thoughts on fit for purpose of something like this?

Are there specific enzymes just for mold? I presume so, but...?

 

[ripblade]

There are two separate issues IMO : vinyl clean and vinyl surface in robust low friction/smooth condition. I doubt the polymer chain plays much part in restoring vinyl surface condition, but perhaps additives or degeneration products do. I think the focus should be on understanding these, because it may well be possible to bring about similar effect without the bulky polymers I hope. What is really needed is a vinyl polymer chemist to profer what is probably simple wisdom as to the likely activities of PVA adhesive in contact with vinyl records, IMO. Seems plausible an additive or by product of curing brings about the effect...... awprint:

I'm not a chemist but as a cabinetmaker I'm familiar with some of the properties of white glue and how they might affect cleaning, such as the acidic nature of it can dissolve minerals, and the surfactant that's used to aid in the penetration of wood fibres will help penetrate particulates. Despite these benefits, I believe the chief mechanism by which it cleans the record is by penetrating/absorbing the particulates and solidifying around them. Wood glue can pull out tightly wedged particles that resist scrubbing, even straighten out bent horns that might otherwise brush against the stylus.

 

[dcmfan]

I was asked to post my vinyl record cleaning method. Hope you find the info useful.

@Vince-

I did my first run using enzymes per this thread and was able to remove a chunk of schmutz from a copy of a record that had resisted all other efforts to dislodge it. Previously the LP would skip at this point and was unplayable. Now the record plays through entirely with no skips and much lower surface noise (like none!).

Really appreciate you for posting this. Thanks!

 

[robgmn]

I use a pressure washer at 400 psi through a fine nozzle after soaking the album for a few minutes with cleaner.
If that pressure can't dislodge anything that might be in the groove, I don't think there is anything non-destructive that WILL.

 

[onwardjames]

@Vince-

I did my first run using enzymes per this thread and was able to remove a chunk of schmutz from a copy of a record that had resisted all other efforts to dislodge it. Previously the LP would skip at this point and was unplayable. Now the record plays through entirely with no skips and much lower surface noise (like none!).

Really appreciate you for posting this. Thanks!

I just bought twinlab super enzyme caps, it was as close as possible locally for your brew.

Enjoying a Jose Feliciano that has slightly improved with the enzymes. It was pretty gone, tho. Looks amazing, just sounds awful. I think it has been plowed.

Any advance on the glue treatment you're concocting? VERY interested in this.

 

[onwardjames]

Wood glue can pull out tightly wedged particles that resist scrubbing, even straighten out bent horns that might otherwise brush against the stylus.

My Bad Company copy of "Desolation Angels" had a long flattened looking area near the end of Rock and Roll Fantasy. Needle skipped all over those 2 minutes.

After gluing, the needle not only didn't skip, it played it, and there is noise, yes, but nothing major. I have to think the glue straightened the grooves, because they looked like they had been pressed down.

 

[stevensloane]

Is the "scintillation grade" Triton X-100 ok to use?