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Record cleaning based on science

luckydog said:
Yup, I guess the point with Pardee demonstrating that cleaning mint albums can increase friction (depending on agent) is that it eliminates a variable ie contaminated records. However, I have reproduced Pardee's results on both clean and 'used' records - and friction (inc surface noise) can increase in both cases IME. So I reserve cleaning for cases only where strictly necessary, and using agents which don't increase friction - hence my question of Vince1 as to whether he has tested for changes to friction on his regime ?
Click to expand...

I hear where your coming from, hence the :D.

There is a lot more to this than I thought.

George.
 
onwardjames said:
I find this interesting. You must have only minty, new albums.

Not cleaning my little 1k pile of vinyl just isn't a listenable choice.

I do, however, seem to have noticed a few albums where after my regimen of cleaning I thought they were actually noisier.

****, I'm off to spin a cd. :D
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Onwardjames, get back over here and get that album back out. You gotta hear that snap, crackle and pop. :yes::D:music:
 
Have ultrasonic - tick

Use Enzyme (AIVS & experimenting with Sporicidin - will look into trying out dry..) Tick

Final rinse with purified water - tick

FRICTION - historically have used LAST - but some of the threads over the last couple of years seem to have demonstrated that the friction reducing effect of LAST (used as recommended) are minimal to unmeasureable. (I am dependent on other peoples testing as my DD's are not very effective for "spindown" friction tests).

Current Friction treatments that have measurably been shown to work include : GruveGlide, ArmorAll Protectant and a number of other automotive vinyl treatment products....

What I would like to ask the collected biochemical braintrust here, is what should be considered as a replacement (or addition to?) for LAST? A permanent friction reducing agent that does not damage the vinyl long term...

The other question is in the interest of expediency, time saving etc... is there any way of putting such a friction treatment agent, into one of the washing steps (enzyme?) - or does it absolutely have to be done as a post cleaning phase.

As an aside with regards to cleaning, I think I recall Gusten mentioning that after an automotive vinyl treatment step with the records, he found additional grunge was being brought out of the grooves for some time later. Apparently the treatment and its carier tends to slowly migrate around the small grunge molecules, eventually getting between them and the vinyl and freeing them up to be picked up by the needle.... (He apparently checked the gunk on the needle via microscope to verify whether it was track gunk or vinyl treatment fluid being picked up...)

So it is also possible that an appropriate treatment like ArmorAll may in fact be a very effective cleaning step, in addition to being a lubricant.

Perhaps the ultimate clean includes ArmorAll treatment followed by a final ultrasonic clean several days later?

bye for now

David
 
GeoKost said:
Onwardjames, get back over here and get that album back out. You gotta hear that snap, crackle and pop. :yes::D:music:
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lmao, funny enough, I have a Jose Feliciano that was unlistenable. I glued twice, and while the big pops are gone, seems the surface noise is higher. Sounds "dry" or is that just my worry becoming manifest?

dlaloum said:
Have ultrasonic - tick

Use Enzyme (AIVS & experimenting with Sporicidin - will look into trying out dry..) Tick

Final rinse with purified water - tick

FRICTION - historically have used LAST - but some of the threads over the last couple of years seem to have demonstrated that the friction reducing effect of LAST (used as recommended) are minimal to unmeasureable. (I am dependent on other peoples testing as my DD's are not very effective for "spindown" friction tests).

Current Friction treatments that have measurably been shown to work include : GruveGlide, ArmorAll Protectant and a number of other automotive vinyl treatment products....

What I would like to ask the collected biochemical braintrust here, is what should be considered as a replacement (or addition to?) for LAST? A permanent friction reducing agent that does not damage the vinyl long term...

The other question is in the interest of expediency, time saving etc... is there any way of putting such a friction treatment agent, into one of the washing steps (enzyme?) - or does it absolutely have to be done as a post cleaning phase.

As an aside with regards to cleaning, I think I recall Gusten mentioning that after an automotive vinyl treatment step with the records, he found additional grunge was being brought out of the grooves for some time later. Apparently the treatment and its carier tends to slowly migrate around the small grunge molecules, eventually getting between them and the vinyl and freeing them up to be picked up by the needle.... (He apparently checked the gunk on the needle via microscope to verify whether it was track gunk or vinyl treatment fluid being picked up...)

So it is also possible that an appropriate treatment like ArmorAll may in fact be a very effective cleaning step, in addition to being a lubricant.

Perhaps the ultimate clean includes ArmorAll treatment followed by a final ultrasonic clean several days later?

bye for now

David
Click to expand...

ARMOR ALL?? Wow. This is something I'd like to know more about. Far out.

God knows that stuff sucks for protecting the car bits. Seems I read the inventor himself said "DO NOT USE IT" on the plastic and leather parts. I use 303 Aerospace protectant, seems much better.
 
Whoa...I would NOT use Armorall. The organosilicon may help with friction, but the main solvent, diethylene glycol is some nasty stuff that I wouldn't want to touch my records. If you are looking for lubrication, the surfactants can help. We already mentioned Triton, which is non-ionic, but there are some cationic surfactants (in the quat family) that not only lubricate, but have the advantage of cutting down static. Furthermore, they exhibit strong antimicrobial properties. Some of these are used in shampoos and especially conditioners to give hair that silky feel. Some proprietary ones (like Cyastat) have indeed been used to treat records where they reduce static. You could easily incorporate one of these into the detergent mix.
 
This is a great thread.

Is there a recipe for the enzyme and cleaner? i.e brands or links for where to get the items needed to make them?
Thanks
 
Vince1 said:
.
Any mild detergent will do. The Triton is sold as a liquid that is super viscous. It is considered to be 100% in this form and is difficult to work with so I suggest making a 10% stock solution (in distilled water) of this to keep on your shelf. This stock is added to the buffer mix so as to dilute it to 0.2% final concentration. You can also use SDS at the same concentration. Or use your favorite detergent based record cleaning solution. The point is the steps: 1. A Prewash to remove debris, 2. An enzymatic treatment to loosen bound contaminants, 3. A detergent wash to remove contaminants, and 4. A final distilled water wash. There are commercial kits that incorporate these steps, but they are hugely expensive. My feeling is that money is better spent on buying more records!
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Am I correct in assuming if one...

1) Pressure washes initially,

2) soaks record with enzymes

3) rinses

4) proceeds to use, say, a normal SpinClean wash

5) re-rinses

that he or she will be golden?

Again, I apologize, but I can burn water, and tear up an anvil in a sawdust pile.
 
onwardjames said:
Am I correct in assuming if one...

1) Pressure washes initially,

2) soaks record with enzymes

3) rinses

4) proceeds to use, say, a normal SpinClean wash

5) re-rinses

that he or she will be golden?

Again, I apologize, but I can burn water, and tear up an anvil in a sawdust pile.
Click to expand...
Nope, not in my experience. Devil's in the detail as to whether the cleaning regime (in combination with original vinyl composition) leaves the vinyl surface in a low friction state. It's a crapshoot IME. There's a further stage ie to 'recondition' or 'relubricate' the surface, and at least an agent capable of this must be present IME. Clean is not the same as low friction, and both are necessary for consistent low surface noise.

My opinion is that PVA glue cleaning can be effective in reducing surface noise at least partly because additives effectively recondition vinyl surface for low friction. Not advocating, just my 2p worth.

BTW my own quest for the elixir of vinyl reconditioning for low friction remains an open contest, some good steps in the right direction but one day I hope to find :pawprint:
 
luckydog said:
My opinion is that PVA glue cleaning can be effective in reducing surface noise at least partly because additives effectively recondition vinyl surface for low friction. Not advocating, just my 2p worth.
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I notice that the "sheen" will come back on albums I've glued, sometimes dramatically.

I think we're all looking for the perfect fix. I know I am. Most of my "junk" vinyl gets transferred, and put away. Future spins may or may not happen. The good vinyl I hardly ever glue, or if I clean, it is a simple SpinClean bath.

Again, little to lose with the glue, but this whole "plasticizer" thing has me bugging.

To the OP, I read somewhere that to rejuvenate old plastic, such as car knobs and such, boiling them resoftens the clay inherent in plastic. Read that on rockauto's monthly mailer. A guy whose father worked for Dow said to dunk them for 1 minute in boiling water, and yellowed, fragile plastic comes out looking new and being once again flexible.

Can you opine on that, and is there any analogy with vinyl?
 
GPJeff said:
1 enzyme cap minus the outer capsule in to 1 gal of water. See thread #2 for the product Nexazyme. You can find it on Amazon for $14. http://www.amazon.com/Multi-enzyme-...ase-Hemicellulase-Galactosidase/dp/B00B9H46NK
Click to expand...

Thankyou Sir!:thmbsp:


onwardjames said:
To the OP, I read somewhere that to rejuvenate old plastic, such as car knobs and such, boiling them resoftens the clay inherent in plastic. Read that on rockauto's monthly mailer. A guy whose father worked for Dow said to dunk them for 1 minute in boiling water, and yellowed, fragile plastic comes out looking new and being once again flexible.

Can you opine on that, and is there any analogy with vinyl?
Click to expand...

Would that not warp the record!?
 
onwardjames said:
Again, little to lose with the glue, but this whole "plasticizer" thing has me bugging.
Click to expand...
Yup, I feel sure that if one might only fully understand what really goes on in PVA treatment of vinyl, there's hope that the effect can be replicated without involving adhesive........:pawprint:
 
luckydog said:
Yup, I feel sure that if one might only fully understand what really goes on in PVA treatment of vinyl, there's hope that the effect can be replicated without involving adhesive........:pawprint:
Click to expand...

I'm on this. I already have begun some experiments. By the end of the week, or maybe after the holidays if my wife doesn't kill me, I'll have a protocol with easily obtainable ingredients. My goal is a peelable film that removes contaminants while not extracting plasticizers nor compromising the integrity of the vinyl. It will be a one step process. I have the basics, just experimenting with additives that will 1. Make the film strong yet pliable, 2. Reduce static charge, 3. Have a workable shelf life, 4. Not leave any particles behind, 5. Actually condition the vinyl (not change or maybe even improve the frictional coefficient), and 6. Speed up drying time (minutes vs hours). I'm confident I'll have something soon. The hardest part is to find a recipe with ingredients that anyone can easily purchase.
If you can think of other desirable properties of such a solution, please let me know!
 
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Vince,

What effects would your cleaning regime and chemicals have on LPs that were treated with Sound Guard and other record preservatives popular in the 70's and 80's? What were these treatments and can they be removed?

dp
 
Vince1 said:
I'm on this. I already have begun some experiments. By the end of the week, or maybe after the holidays if my wife doesn't kill me, I'll have a protocol with easily obtainable ingredients. My goal is a peelable film that removes contaminants while not extracting plasticizers nor compromising the integrity of the vinyl. It will be a one step process. I have the basics, just experimenting with additives that will 1. Make the film strong yet pliable, 2. Reduce static charge, 3. Have a workable shelf life, 4. Not leave any particles behind, 5. Actually condition the vinyl (not change or maybe even improve the frictional coefficient), and 6. Speed up drying time (minutes vs hours). I'm confident I'll have something soon. The hardest part is to find a recipe with ingredients that anyone can easily purchase.
If you can think of other desirable properties of such a solution, please let me know!
Click to expand...

Very interesting, I like what I'm reading here.

I can't help with the solution, but I can give you verbal support. :thmbsp:

Keep up the good work Vince. :yes:

George.
 
loonlodge said:
Vince,What effects would your cleaning regime and chemicals have on LPs that were treated with Sound Guard and other record preservatives popular in the 70's and 80's? What were these treatments and can they be removed?
dp
Click to expand...
Interesting question. The Ball Brothers developed a number of "lubricants" for aerospace and were quite successful. So much so, that they introduced lubricants for commercial apllications, including soundguard for Lps. Both my boys are engineers in Boulder, one in aerospace, one in electrical, so I gleen a lot of info from discussions with them. Though the formulation is proprietary, they were most interested in lubricants that lasted in zero gravity. Their secret wasn't just formulations, but the way they were applied under vacuum. In any event, they were formulated with organometallic compounds (esp. Molybdenum based) along with long chain aliphatics. The latter include detergents, like the Triton, Tergitols, and others we've discussed, so at least this component can be dissolved away in detergent. As for the organometallics, I would not know unless they were specifically identified.

loonlodge said:
I found a bottle of Dr Mercola Digestive Enzymes around the house unopened. It is made of ox bile extract 45%, papain 76000 tu, bromelain 50 gdu , alpha galactosidase and amylase 1000 skb. Will this work?
Is it still in dry form? Are they capsules you can empty? Is the liist of inactive ingredients minimal? If all seems Kosher, go ahead and try it.

http://shop.mercola.com/product/digestive-enzyme-capsules-30-per-bottle-1-bottle,49,13.htm
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I looked at that formulation and it should work...give it a try. Not fond of the cellulose additive. Most have this though, but then why have cellulase as an active ingredient? I guess they want to keep it busy ;-)

GeoKost said:
Very interesting, I like what I'm reading here.

I can't help with the solution, but I can give you verbal support.
Keep up the good work Vince. :yes:
George.
Click to expand...

Thanks George, that helps as the wifey is getting tired of my distractions. Is there money in this? She asks as I laugh.
 
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