The Shocker
Super Member
Was tape his as big an issue with reel to reel tapes as it was with compact cassettes? Were there any noise deduction techniques applied to reel to reel tapes, like there were to cassettes?
Reel to reel tape noise reduction
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dhnash
Super Member
Generally tape hiss was less of a problem with reel to reel tape due to the greater width of the tape and the higher recording speeds.
Yes, Dolby B or DBX noise reduction systems were included on some models of R2R decks and Dolby B pre-recorded tapes were also offered.
The Shocker
Super Member
Back in the days when I used to listen to tapes, I never really liked turning on Dolby B for pre-recorded tapes. Maybe I'm just a treble head.
danj
modern primitive
The only time hiss was ever a problem with my R2R decks was when I used a low-end tape, and that's the fault of the tape not the deck. Dolby "B" encoders are available and will help but usually you won't notice hiss unless you're wearing headphones. R2R s/n was as good or better without NR than you could get from most cassette decks with NR. (except for DBX)
The Shocker
Super Member
So, why is cassette more prone to hiss than r2r?
Because of the narrow footprint of the tape, the very slow tape speed (1 7/8 IPS) and the equalization needed to bring the high frequencies up to a decent level at that speed. Truthfully I’m amazed that they were eventually able to wring out such decent sound quality from cassettes considering those factors. Tape formulas and machine circuitry really improved over the span of that format.
danj
modern primitive
It's the nature of the beast. Much improved tapes and optimized head design reduced noise a lot but R2R had all the advantages. My first R2R, a Sony TC-366, had the 1 7/8 IPS speed capability but it was only suitable for voice. I had to go to 3 3/4 IPS to get decent performance or 7 1/2 IPS to get great sound. My first cassette deck sounded far better than the 366 at 1 7/8. I agree with audiojones that it was almost a miracle that cassette deck evers got as good as they did.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
I was making recordings for a radio Station starting in the middle 60's using Ampex 351's and 300s's. When Scotch 201 series tape came along used with Ampex mastering Equalization developed by Ray Dolby you could gain almost 15 db dynamic range and lower noise. Then SS came along and MR 70's tape machines which could easily produce recordings with 85 db range using nuvisitors. Then came professional Dolby and DBX noise reduction systems and analog tape could surpass digital recordings from SoundStream using the new High output Dynamic tape from Maxell, TDK and Ampex Grand master. . Until the 80's came along. Scully and Studer were also challenging Ampex. MCI was making updated SS electronics for the old tube machines, too. Even though I was buying CD starting in the mid 80's it was another 10 years before I thought Cd's were more consistent technically and the engineers were approaching the artistry of the masters from the good old tube days. I have issues with streaming today, but its evolving like analog tape machines did over the 60's, 70's and 80's be fore disappearing. Today everything moves so much faster. With 5G and faster internet speeds, CD's, Dvd's Blu Rays , even 4K will be gone very soon. The next Summer Olympics will be broadcast in some parts of the world in 8K. I wonder if TV stations will be able to compete by 2040, or will they all be gone?. Analog will truly be an obsolete format by then. Unless some Doctor of Physics figures out why some of us love analog first and can perceive digital to its detriment.
phantomrebel
Serial Tapist
No matter how TV technologies evolve, I wouldn't count on analog tape being obsolete any time soon as it is an essential part of the internet. The entire cloud network of companies like Amazon and Google is backed up using tape because the media has unique advantages. When Gmail goes down, it is recovered from tape. There was a piece on NPR Marketplace this weekend on how two tape manufacturers were controlling this field (and the legal battles involved). Here's a summary from Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/the-future-of-the-cloud-depends-on-magnetic-tape
So all those music files on iTunes, HDTracks, Amazon music, and the like are actually restored from tape "masters"!
So all those music files on iTunes, HDTracks, Amazon music, and the like are actually restored from tape "masters"!
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KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
They were built into very few open reel machines. DBX had fewer installations than Dolby B did. DBX works very poorly with less than ideally set up and aligned tape machines with flat and accurate frequency response. And DBX demands very close attention paid to level practices to function properly, or else it will pump and breathe easily. Dolby B also demands well setup, accurate, flat, properly aligned tape machines. If your machine is misaligned, has azimuth or frequency response issues, or has other electrical or mechanical issues, they need to be addressed before considering the use of an NR unit. And this pertains to the specific tape machine you will be using with it as an individual. Simple physics. In analog tape, the wider the track width, the faster the tape speed used, the better the signal to noise ratio and the wider the frequency response. Also, not all tape machine specification sheets are equal. ReVox, Magnecord, consumer Ampex, and Crown are like professional machines in their quotes, the barest minimum the machine was capable of guaranteed. And as a rule every one of those machines performed better than advertised. Many consumer machines were much more optimistic in their claims.
loonlodge
Active Member
Let's not forget DNR noise reduction. It is a playback only system that requires no encoding or decoding so it can be used with all your current tapes. It does not provide as much hiss reduction, however with R2R not much is usually necessary. Plus it can be purchased quite reasonably as it was included on several stand alone Radio Shack audio and video processors as well as units marketed under the DNR name. It just might be the trick.
http://greyghost.mooo.com/dnr/
http://greyghost.mooo.com/dnr/
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Slower speed, narrower tape widths, and less tape real estate to work with. A cassette is cramming 4 channels of audio on 1/8" wide tape at 1 7/8" a second in 2 directions. Open reel typically used by most people is 1/4" wide tape, with the same 4 channels of audio in two directions at either 3 3/4" or 7 1/2" inches per second. Broadcast stations, advanced home users, or studios on 1/4" tape use two channels in one direction at 7 1/2 inches per second or 15 inches per second. The wider the tape, the wider the tape tracks, the faster the speed the tape travels at, the less hiss you have.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Who in the consumer world uses wider than 1/4" tape? Most users of tape at home are either 1/4 track or 1/2 track Stereo, usually 3 3/4 IPS or 7 1/2 IPS. And some high end users using 1/2 track and 15 IPS.
The Shocker
Super Member
Seriously, who in the 21st century uses any kind of reel-to-reel tape at home any more? I'm sure there are holdouts, but from a practical standpoint, I would think that RTR is more dead than cassette at this point.
I have seen more new production music on RTR being sold on the interweb than cassette. The new cassettes (I do not shop for them, just noticed some) I have seen seem to be from niche studios doing cassettes and RTR is being produced by “larger” companies.
This is just an observation as I do not shop for tape.
The Shocker
Super Member
I've seen some "audiophile" releases on R2R. I'm sure they sound much better than cassette. But there are a number of cassette releases these days as well. I seem to recall the R2R releases being extremely expensive and provided on multiple tapes.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Some people still use analog. I have a collection of pre-recorded tapes and stuff I've recorded over the years. My open reel's been a lot more reliable than 99% of digital disc spinners too.
