Rega P3 With and Without Spacers - Audio Samples

[Desmoface]

Alright, so there is a bit of controversy over VTA and Rega turntables. Rega says it's insignificant and others claim it's critically important to maximizing sound quality. In regards to my recent VM540ML installation (Planar 3), some say a 2mm spacer will be required to achieve the best results, others say it doesn't need a spacer.

All that sald - I made some rips with and without the spacer to see what everyone thinks. I'm not going to specify which is which, I'm doing this as kind of a blind test to see if anyone can actually tell the difference.

All of the tone controls on my Parasound 2100 Preamp are set flat and lossless wav files were created using Audacity.

Sample 1

A. https://www.dropbox.com/s/k17frcvnfdcy324/Stewart Copeland - Don't Box Me In A.wav?dl=0

B. https://www.dropbox.com/s/pgi42l1j1uy7n2z/Stewart Copeland - Don't Box Me In B.wav?dl=0

Sample 2

A. https://www.dropbox.com/s/2md3z3shidhutq0/Donad Fagen - New Frontier A.wav?dl=0

B. https://www.dropbox.com/s/70azi85jzeypxm2/Donald Fagen - New Frontier B.wav?dl=0

Sample 3

A. https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4wydgxj5p8ksxv/The Poilce - One World Is Enough A.wav?dl=0

B. https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbeswejvinjm3a2/The Police - One World Is Enough B.wav?dl=0


Let the games begin

Steve

 

[67dylan]

Samples B sounds better. Regardless of the spacer, it's the better sounding option.

I have a Rega P3 w/an adjustable VTA that I've raised for my Micro Benz Gold & Denon DL160. My Goldring Eroica requires no upward adjustment. It sounds great at stock height. I've heard the same about Rega's but my ears tell me different.

 

[Desmoface]

Hi 67dylan,

Thanks for the response; I’ve done this experiment elsewhere and the majority echo your conclusion. If I’m honest, I can’t tell any discernible difference, LOL.

Steve

Samples B sounds better. Regardless of the spacer, it's the better sounding option.

I have a Rega P3 w/an adjustable VTA that I've raised for my Micro Benz Gold & Denon DL160. My Goldring Eroica requires no upward adjustment. It sounds great at stock height. I've heard the same about Rega's but my ears tell me different.

 

[67dylan]

It's been a few days. Are you going to tell us which is what and where is who?

 

[Desmoface]

Ha, I kind of forgot about it as there wasn't much participation. The 'A' samples had the spacers. Most of the people that responded in other venues actually preferred the samples without the spacers, you included, so I replaced the 2mm spacer with a 1mm spacer, just cuz I could.

Steve

It's been a few days. Are you going to tell us which is what and where is who?

 

[cafe latte]

VTA is far less important than many think. Most adjustable arms can only adjust 7 or 8mm and dialing up from stylus vertical in the groove to obtain a rake angle of 92 degrees would mean dialing up another 6mm which results in an arm with tail very high. So point here is setting up arm with tail very high has only adjusted 2 degrees ie gone from 90-92 degrees and just playing the record you can have 1 degree variations due to the groove modulations and the direction changes in the groove, then there is vinyl thickness.. I did set up my Grado tail up as for the Grado only way to obtain 92 degrees which I was experimenting with that idea at the time, but lets think about this with an elliptical for example how much change will adjusting 2 degrees with regards to the contact areas? Hmm almost no difference at all.. VTA does make a difference but only very large differences, I have a Jico Shibata for a 681 which has the wrong angle so the stylus is pointing rearwards when arm is fully down ie no amount of arm adjusting can get this stylus even close VTA wise, this is no good, but a few mm up or down wont make a jot of difference, it cant, you are only talking about maybe 1 degree or less in tracking angle, nobody has that much of a golden ear.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Ha, I kind of forgot about it as there wasn't much participation. The 'A' samples had the spacers. Most of the people that responded in other venues actually preferred the samples without the spacers, you included, so I replaced the 2mm spacer with a 1mm spacer, just cuz I could.

Steve

From memory 5, maybe 6mm up is going up 2 degrees in VTA so adding a 2mm spacer is going up less than 1 degree, a 1mm spacer is going up a fraction of a degree, playing a thinner record will do more than this this, these adjustments wont make any differences at all remember you are raising on a 9 inch arm the rear this is only altering the rake angle of the stylus at the other end of the arm a tiny tiny amount.
Chris

 

[Desmoface]

Hello everyone - I agree with both of you, while I agree vta can have an affect, most people, me included, won’t be able to tell a difference with a 2mm spacer. I know there are those who swear that they can hear minor vta changes, and I wouldn’t argue with them...I just know from my personal experience, that I cannot.

Steve

 

[67dylan]

I'm not doubting you are correct in your statement. I have read 1mm = .19* which is miniscule. I did think twice about purchasing my adjustable VTA but ultimately made the purchase. When taking notes & making 1mm adjustments I hear differences. Mostly in the bass region. I ask, with all due respect, how come one recording in this post sounds better than the other?

 

[Desmoface]

Hi 67dylan, I asume you are asking me; I was hard pressed to hear any difference between the two samples.

Steve

I'm not doubting you are correct in your statement. I have read 1mm = .19* which is miniscule. I did think twice about purchasing my adjustable VTA but ultimately made the purchase. When taking notes & making 1mm adjustments I hear differences. Mostly in the bass region. I ask, with all due respect, how come one recording in this post sounds better than the other?

 

[cafe latte]

I'm not doubting you are correct in your statement. I have read 1mm = .19* which is miniscule. I did think twice about purchasing my adjustable VTA but ultimately made the purchase. When taking notes & making 1mm adjustments I hear differences. Mostly in the bass region. I ask, with all due respect, how come one recording in this post sounds better than the other?

Perception bias is huge no way is 1mm audible this is fractions of a degree at the stylus end and records are not flat so they will be going up and down with vinyl thickness too. 1 mm will be 90 degrees to 90 .2 or so degrees you are not going to hear it stylus contact areas are not that precise, 5mm is hard to hear a difference and probably that difference is the same bias.
Chris

 

[wushuliu]

There is no research regarding perception bias in VTA adjustments. We can’t just use the words perception bias in any context. Just take the person’s feedback as a data point to be considered.

 

[sqlsavior]

Never let ANYONE tell you that you can't hear something that you have heard.

It's the worst kind of snobbery.

 

[jrtrent]

Never let ANYONE tell you that you can't hear something that you have heard.

It's the worst kind of snobbery.

I don't think I'd call it snobbery, but the word presumptuous comes to mind. Then again, being a Rega owner who's never even bothered with spacers, I'm not one who worries much about precision in VTA.

 

[cafe latte]

Never let ANYONE tell you that you can't hear something that you have heard.

It's the worst kind of snobbery.

Not snobbery just not possible, 1mm up at tail end of a 9 inch arm changes rake angle of the stylus only by 0.25 of a degree!!!! when we consider rake angle has hardly changed at all and contact areas of the stylus tip too you see when you look into this subject further have changed nothing that will make any difference so if you are hearing a change it is your brain playing tricks or perception bias.
This is an interesting read https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html
Chris

 

[sqlsavior]

Congratulations,@cafe latte - You've earned a spot on my growing, but still very short, Ignore list.

It is snobbery, or reverse snobbery, anyway. The worst kind, as I stated.

Buh-bye.

 

[cafe latte]

Congratulations,@cafe latte - You've earned a spot on my growing, but still very short, Ignore list.

It is snobbery, or reverse snobbery, anyway. The worst kind, as I stated.

Buh-bye.

I posted here to help sorry if I said something that was against what you believe in. Some things are possible in this hobby maybe a platter mat damping things differently so sounding different but some things are just not possible. I studied in great detail this topic and realised as others before me have that 1mm at the tail only affects the rake angle by a tiny amount you need to raise the arm at the tail 4mm to get a change in rake angle of only 1 degree we are talking about only raising the arm 1mm and hearing a difference just not possible. What causes a change in sound for rake angle change? Simple a change in contact with vinyl by the stylus contact surfaces we are not talking about possible other issues as only talking about one or 2mm here on this thread..
How much change do you think that changing the rake angle by 0.25 of a degree would make to the contact surfaces with the vinyl? Non to make any real difference you need to change the rake quite a lot and you are just not going to do that with a 1mm spacer. Think how much vinyl varies in thickness from one record to the next you will get bigger differences than 1mm record to record. Even one one record playing the vinyl vaies in thickness and the stylus tracking the groove moves vertically and left and right by far more than people think. If 1mm at tail made a difference normal playback would sound terrible as the stylus sways back and forth up and down tracking the groove walls. The stylus needs to be resistant to such small changes otherwise it would not be able to do what it is designed for. Maybe 8mm might make a difference, but guys look at what you are doing and think what that is actually doing in real numbers that is all I am saying. Rega are both right and wrong IMO It is nice to be able to alter arm height but obsessing about minor changes is pointless when you look at rake angle changes and contact patches.
No offense meant to anyone.
Chris

 

[whyaskit]

I listened to the samples today. As I watched the football games. To me the A samples had a little too much energy in the higher octaves making it hard to hear all the different things happening in the songs. It also, IMO, was harder to enjoy. The B samples had better balance and were smoother overall. It was much easier to hear every little thing in the songs.

Just my thoughts. I also was reminded about how I am always amazed at the percussion with the police songs.

 

[Desmoface]

Stewart Copeland is a beast!

I listened to the samples today. As I watched the football games. To me the A samples had a little too much energy in the higher octaves making it hard to hear all the different things happening in the songs. It also, IMO, was harder to enjoy. The B samples had better balance and were smoother overall. It was much easier to hear every little thing in the songs.

Just my thoughts. I also was reminded about how I am always amazed at the percussion with the police songs.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Why does every table I own have tonearms that you can adjust the VTA, if it makes no difference? I don't have any tonearms that allows adjustment on the fly, but I do set them all up as close as possible using a heavy vinyl record.