Rega P3 With and Without Spacers - Audio Samples

[Ken Boyd]

Unlike some members who prefer something just plug and play, I prefer as many adjustments as possible. Rather have the capability than not.

 

[Thunderbox]

Unlike some members who prefer something just plug and play, I prefer as many adjustments as possible. Rather have the capability than not.

I agree Ken. Having adjustability is great. Will a 1 mm spacer make a huge difference is hard to determine. I can say from playing with VTA that there is a sweet spot beyond a doubt. Maybe if a person was close to that spot and made a change with a 1mm spacer you may hear the difference. I can also say that sometimes changing the VTA by raising or lowering the arm as much as 15MM can make no change at all depending on the cartridge and stylus type. There are many ways to affect VTA and IMHO it is worth trying. The problem is, how good is your sound memory?

 

[cafe latte]

Why does every table I own have tonearms that you can adjust the VTA, if it makes no difference? I don't have any tonearms that allows adjustment on the fly, but I do set them all up as close as possible using a heavy vinyl record.

I prefer arms that you can adjust VTA as sometimes carts stylus are just not made right. I have a Shibata for a 681 for example which had the stylus tip pointing seriously backwards so adjusting as much as possible the arm to be as low as possible reduced this error, but I am talking about adjusting the arm 8mm not 1mm. Some of my carts need the arm all the way up and some all the way down, but obsessing about 1 or 2 mm is pointless as it wont affect rake angle a significant amount, even 8mm is only 2 degrees. Thinks about it the stylus is bobbing up and down and swinging left and right tracking the groove and riding thicker and thinner vinyl if 0.25 degrees change in rake angle was audible imagine how a complicated passage would sound it would be horrible.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

I agree Ken. Having adjustability is great. Will a 1 mm spacer make a huge difference is hard to determine. I can say from playing with VTA that there is a sweet spot beyond a doubt. Maybe if a person was close to that spot and made a change with a 1mm spacer you may hear the difference. I can also say that sometimes changing the VTA by raising or lowering the arm as much as 15MM can make no change at all depending on the cartridge and stylus type. There are many ways to affect VTA and IMHO it is worth trying. The problem is, how good is your sound memory?

How good is your sound memory is a good point as humans we have very poor recall in this respect experiments show that even a break of 15 seconds before asking the person which frequency that they replay is the one from before people get it horribly wrong. Even in more musical tests participants miss big changes we need sound to be instantaneous and even then as humans we are terrible at this. Bit like stereo separation we can have on flag files with decent gear 100 or more dB of stereo separation but kind of pointless when it has been proven that we can only determine about 20 dB of separation.
Chris

 

[JP]

This is one of those topics where some of the factors at play are less obvious. There’s a body of evidence where the likely conclusion is that with some fine-line types, in certain setups and environments, that ‘inconsequential’ change of attitude from minor VTA changes can have an affect on the friction interface between the groove and the stylus. This in turn can lead to affects like scrubbing, which will have an affect on pesky things like IMD and THD. Effective masses, compliances, materials, environment, etc. are all factors in this equation.

 

[wushuliu]

How good is your sound memory is a good point as humans we have very poor recall in this respect experiments show that even a break of 15 seconds before asking the person which frequency that they replay is the one from before people get it horribly wrong. Even in more musical tests participants miss big changes we need sound to be instantaneous and even then as humans we are terrible at this. Bit like stereo separation we can have on flag files with decent gear 100 or more dB of stereo separation but kind of pointless when it has been proven that we can only determine about 20 dB of separation.
Chris

Our sound memory seems to be good enough for Sean Olive and Harman to create a program to educate and train listeners in critical listening, and certainly good enough for the speaker and headphone response testing at their multi-million dollar facility as documented on his blog.

 

[cafe latte]

This is one of those topics where some of the factors at play are less obvious. There’s a body of evidence where the likely conclusion is that with some fine-line types, in certain setups and environments, that ‘inconsequential’ change of attitude from minor VTA changes can have an affect on the friction interface between the groove and the stylus. This in turn can lead to affects like scrubbing, which will have an affect on pesky things like IMD and THD. Effective masses, compliances, materials, environment, etc. are all factors in this equation.

Not changes of 0.25 degree rake angle though, if they needed this accuracy it would be impossible to play a record due to the things that go on in normal replay never mind thin records and thick ones.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Our sound memory seems to be good enough for Sean Olive and Harman to create a program to educate and train listeners in critical listening, and certainly good enough for the speaker and headphone response testing at their multi-million dollar facility as documented on his blog.

You may well be able to train people what to listen for but we cant get past human limitations and our audio recall is terrible at best.
Chris

 

[JP]

Not changes of 0.25 degree rake angle though, if they needed this accuracy it would be impossible to play a record due to the things that go on in normal replay never mind thin records and thick ones.
Chris

That’s practically four logical fallacies in a single sentence

 

[W9TR]

The easiest way to change VTA is to adjust tracking force, of course with if the cartridge manufacturer’s specifications. All carts have finite static compliance so that increasing tracking force increases cantilever upward deflection and so has the same effect as lowering the arm tower.
Tom

 

[cafe latte]

That’s practically four logical fallacies in a single sentence

No fallacies (mistaken beliefs) 1mm up at back of arm gives 0.25 degree change in rake angle fact for a 9 inch arm anyway. When a stylus tracks a record it needs to track the groove this means the stylus sways left right and up and down and then there is vinyl thickness which varies a lot even on one record never mind record to record no mistaken beliefs at all..
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

The easiest way to change VTA is to adjust tracking force, of course with if the cartridge manufacturer’s specifications. All carts have finite static compliance so that increasing tracking force increases cantilever upward deflection and so has the same effect as lowering the arm tower.
Tom

This is a very valid point. That said we need to keep the magnets and coils aligned best possible so too much tracking force and things are not where they are supposed to be good point though.
Chris

 

[JP]

No fallacies (mistaken beliefs) 1mm up at back of arm gives 0.25 degree change in rake angle fact for a 9 inch arm anyway. When a stylus tracks a record it needs to track the groove this means the stylus sways left right and up and down and then there is vinyl thickness which varies a lot even on one record never mind record to record no mistaken beliefs at all..
Chris

But a single inconsequential factor in a sea of many. If you want to discuss the merits of friction, scrubbing, static and dynamic factors, etc. I’m more than happy to participate. Repeating your position ad nauseum is a solo sport.

 

[cafe latte]

O.25 of a degree does not change anything rake angle wise and if if does I would be buying another cart. We are not discussing other factors but rake angle and what 1mm up at tail will do, which is nothing. 4mm is different but let's keep this in perspective.
Chris

But a single inconsequential factor in a sea of many. If you want to discuss the merits of friction, scrubbing, static and dynamic factors, etc. I’m more than happy to participate. Repeating your position ad nauseum is a solo sport.

 

[Thunderbox]

Our sound memory seems to be good enough for Sean Olive and Harman to create a program to educate and train listeners in critical listening, and certainly good enough for the speaker and headphone response testing at their multi-million dollar facility as documented on his blog.

So they claim.

 

[Thunderbox]

No fallacies (mistaken beliefs) 1mm up at back of arm gives 0.25 degree change in rake angle fact for a 9 inch arm anyway. When a stylus tracks a record it needs to track the groove this means the stylus sways left right and up and down and then there is vinyl thickness which varies a lot even on one record never mind record to record no mistaken beliefs at all..
Chris

The .25% change by adding a 1 mm spacer is completely dependent on the effective length of the arm.

 

[cafe latte]

mistake post

 

[cafe latte]

The .25% change by adding a 1 mm spacer is completely dependent on the effective length of the arm.

Yes I agree a 12 inch arm would only be 0.19 degree per 1mm at rear so even less.
CHris