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Rubber rejuvenation

LOL, this is kids stuff Jerry, try discussing record cleaning!. Anyways, I think the messages we agree on are:
1. Use rubber restoration chemicals at your own risk and
2. You are better off replacing the rubber rather than restoring it.
 
Ok, you guys, time for a beer break! I didn't anticipate the technical shiite-storm, however enlightening. All responses are appreciated re: potential useful products/treatments. Can't hurt the drive wheels,as they're currently junk, but I shall proceed cautiously with the pinch roller groove issue. Reason for wanting to resurrect this old deck is its 1 7/8ips capability, since finding a few tapes in my inherited archives of several hundred 7" tapes with speech recorded at this speed. Already found a recording of my grand-dad (maternal), a Hungarian import, describing events in his life, very enlightening, a few things even Mom was unaware of. Very time_consuming, going through these, & have a long way to go. Was using my Realistic TR-3000, but it's only a 2-speed unit, as is my Revox B-77 .Many of these tapes were estate/yard sale, flea market finds that dear uncle hoarded, so bulk erasing going on. However, i have recordings of historic interest, newscasts of Nixon resigning, Apollo space missions, Winston Churchill speeches, Kennedy assassination, & God knows what else! A lot of very degraded or poorly-recorded stuff, also. All the Kodak tape is physically useless, it degraded like an unburied corpse, but is providing a lot of empty reels, soon to show up on BT. Kodak reels are the best, most user_friendly of the lot. Moderator, it may be time to wrap up this thread, in order to preserve the peace! Jerry :bye:

Best thing to do if they are tapes of value is to send them out to be digitized.

Most conversion houses follow archival ethics, and will not do anything to the originals that might damage them without getting your consent.

Otherwise, I'm fine closing out this thread. The horse is dead.
 
The default professional position in matters such as this is to refrain from unproven treatments and methods until they can be proven as non-destructive. You simply do not expose magnetic tape media to untested chemicals.

Nope. That is rarely true—actually honored more in the breach—and as a lawyer you should know this, but it may well be outside your area of practice.

The standard regulatory approach adopted by the United States, such as the 1976 Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) 15 U.S.C. ch. 53, §§ 2601–2629, requires that a particular chemical be proven to be unsafe. The FDA's bizarre policy of Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS), see Federal Register Notice GRAS Final Rule 81 FR 54960, August 17, 2016, also governed from the TSCA, is particularly troubling, because the manufacturer itself supplies the data, created at its behest by parties under its control, to establish "safety". When the EPA is supplied with notice of a new chemical to be introduced, no safety data need be provided. The situation is some sort of bizarro-verse: the EPA must instead assert and establish, within ninety days, that the new chemical is unsafe and request further testing, which results in a pack of lies being filed. Otherwise the chemical is approved.

Such policies, driven by the chemical industry, are obviously the opposite of the expected and desired situation. The FDA, USDA, EPA, etc. must all prove a lack of safety before any chemical or material may be regulated. This is highly problematic. The TSCA has upwards of 84,000 entries, yet only a few hundred have ever actually been tested for safety.

The scope of the problem and the ramifications are far beyond our little discussion. I would point to the use of lead in paint and gasoline, asbestos in numerous products, chlorofluorocarbons, neonicotinoids and glyphosate, etc. (Trivia fact for the day: leaded gasoline and CFCs were created by the same chemist who ended up with chronic lead poisoning and paralysis as a result, and subsequently committed suicide. That was Thomas Midgley, Jr., who single-handedly did more harm to the planet than any other individual. He, and his boss Charles Kettering, make Fritz Haber look like a boy scout.)

This is not to say that I disagree with you; as I do not. I believe that chemicals and materials must, in general, be proven as safe and effective.

But as per the instant discussion as it relates to issues involving tape decks and pinch rollers, I suggest relying upon the widespread adoption and use of methyl salicylate as a rubber plasticizer, and the fact that despite such widespread use reports of deleterious effects to tape after rejuvenation have not been widely published, or apparently even published at all. This does not mean that such issues do not exist, it merely means I and others have not seen them. I am therefore agnostic. Given the volatility of the solvents and the size of the plasticizer that it stands to accepted chemical practice that no residue exists and therefore no deleterious effects exist. But, again, this is merely guideline and not proof of anything as no long-term studies have been done.

Sometimes we must fight the rubber rejuvenation war with what we have, not with what we want.
 
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Retrovert and sgmlaw: you understand that you are discussing completely different things, don't you? Note that reading such a dialogue of the deaf may be kind of funny, but I don't think I'll join in :rolleyes:

Reason for wanting to resurrect this old deck is its 1 7/8ips capability, since finding a few tapes in my inherited archives of several hundred 7" tapes with speech recorded at this speed. Already found a recording of my grand-dad (maternal), a Hungarian import, describing events in his life, very enlightening, a few things even Mom was unaware of. Very time_consuming, going through these, & have a long way to go. Was using my Realistic TR-3000, but it's only a 2-speed unit, as is my Revox B-77

Ah, I see your need now. There is another option then: you can digitize those 1 7/8 tapes with your B77, providing the track layout is the same. It's not the best way to do it, but the eq difference between 3 3/4 an 1 7/8 is not such that it audibly changes the sound (at 1 7/8 ips the bandwidth is not great anyway) and any decent editing sotware will easily do the required 2x time stretch. I've done this several times with good results.
 
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Anyways, I think the messages we agree on are:
1. Use rubber restoration chemicals at your own risk and
2. You are better off replacing the rubber rather than restoring it.

Sage advice. The issue with (2), of course, is that the parts are sometimes unavailable and must be re-created at non-trivial expense.

But no one could argue with the wisdom of either.
 
Sage advice. The issue with (2), of course, is that the parts are sometimes unavailable and must be re-created at non-trivial expense.

But no one could argue with the wisdom of either.
There is always Terry’s Rubber Rollers. I’ve used him and highly recommend.
With regards to (1), I would include the one chemical widely known to cause harm to tape, water.
 
Retrovert and sgmlaw: you understand that you are discussing completely different things, don't you? Note that reading such a dialogue of the deaf may be kind of funny, but I don't think I'll join in :rolleyes:

Not really. The issue is that the standards of proof are not always the same in all contexts. It may well be a fine point, but it is true.

BTW: my hearing-impaired friends and co-workers would take serious issue with your mocking statement. Deaf people are not, as you imply, ignorant, stupid, unable to follow complex discussions, or easily confused; they can read, and sign language is able to communicate ideas as well as speech.
 
Not really. The issue is that the standards of proof are not always the same in all contexts. It may well be a fine point, but it is true.
I can't believe I have to explain the obvious, but since I apparently have to... you are talking about legalities and health hazard, while sgmlaw is talking about the ethics of restoration (the priority given to not damaging the things that one is entrusted with). A restoration professional will never ever do something that might damage a tape, even if the FDA allows it. There is no question of context there: they have to follow the FDA regulations and their ethics.

BTW: my hearing-impaired friends and co-workers would take serious issue with your mocking statement. Deaf people are not, as you imply, ignorant, stupid, unable to follow complex discussions, or easily confused; they can read, and sign language is able to communicate ideas as well as speech.
Is it a joke, or do you really ignore what "dialogue of the deaf" means? http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095715819. BTW I too have deaf friends, I just don't mistake an common expression for the locutor's opinion - and neither do they, for that matter.

And with this being said, it's time for me to leave this thread which has started to look just like a cable discussion.

PS: +1 for Terry's rubber rollers. I've used his services on several occasions and he has always done a great job.
 
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Hope folks stay around. I’ve learned more in this thread than most (much not even about rubber restoration). Appreciate all the educated opinions.
 
I can't believe I have to explain the obvious, but since I apparently have to... you are talking about legalities and health hazard, while sgmlaw is talking about the ethics of restoration (the priority given to not damaging the things that one is entrusted with). A restoration professional will never ever do something that might damage a tape, even if the FDA allows it.

My point was that it is not always the default.

A vast difference exists between "the default position of an archivist" vs. "the default position of a chemical researcher" vs. "the default position of a regulator".

All very different arguments.

I'm well familiar with reversibility in art conservation and restoration and the rule of "do no harm".

But in this context nobody is talking about using a restored wheel on rare recordings which could be damaged. That was a red herring and a fallacious argument.

I'd rather argue about fuse polarity and why it is important to always pre-load electrons—or is it phlogiston or luminiferous aether; I can never keep it all straight—into volume-control knobs.
 
Nope. That is rarely true—actually honored more in the breach—and as a lawyer you should know this, but it may well be outside your area of practice.

Here we go again.

It was very much in my former wheelhouse, And I can tell you that some of the thinking here is common among product liability defendants. That is not to imply that anything you have said here or proposed is legally actionable. So relax.

But what you are advocating is potentially unsafe for the purposes for which it is reasonably intended to be used. I said potentially. In this instance, not for the rejuvenation of rubber, but for use in a magnetic tape machine, as it relates to the tape media. That is the intellectual marketplace into which you are injecting this concept. And the burden is not on others to prove it unsafe or destructive, but on those promoting it to prove it safe -- for the purposes and in the environment in which it is likely to be used. That is just how the real world works. It really does.

I have no doubt that as a chemist, you are able to formulate a compound that may rejuvenate rubber. But you are propounding it for use in magnetic tape machines, where it is possible, even foreseeable, that it will come into contact with magnetic tape oxide binders.

Expert question: What analysis, using generally accepted scientific standards, have you conducted as to what the effects of your formula will be on the commercially established existing stocks of magnetic tape media polymer oxide binders? And if so, what did you conclude? Settle that question, and you are off and running. And if you have not looked into it, why not? In some venues, a jury would be very interested to know those answers.

Saying that you are 'agnostic' about its use in this context is similar to a rat poison manufacturer saying they are agnostic about its use as a children's cereal. That is why the rat poison manufacturer has a duty to warn. And I can assure you, they honor that duty. A duty to warn. Think about that for a minute.

It is similar to declaring that something will continue to be used until proof of danger has been established, when no meaningful safety tests have even been conducted. Someone here works in pharma. Do you think that new drugs are simply thrown out on the market without extensive testing as to all potential side effects? Is it up to the doctors and patients to prove the dangers before the drug is pulled from the market, where the manufacturer never undertakes those tests? Sick patients sometimes get very rich when that happens.

Lay people take what experts say more seriously. They tend to rely on it more than other opinions. If someone who they think is an expert says to use or do something, they are more likely to use it or do it. So there is the inducement factor.

I have learned many things about experts over the years. Without revealing too much personal, as I come here merely for pleasure in my hobby, I have dealt with countless experts. You might say I am an expert on experts! "Expert" is a well-defined legal term of art. I have learned about them and from them over the years. Most are well-meaning, sincere, earnest, and careful to follow the generally accepted standards of their field, but no further. I like experts. We need experts. They make our lives better. And that like most reasonable minds, good experts often differ, as no field or discipline is ever really settled. There are always new discoveries, innovations and processes just around the corner. But for the here and the now, we are stuck with our state of the arts, and our generally accepted standards. When experts differ, I am particularly happy, because I know the issue at hand is really being thought about, and that the most viable thesis will most likely emerge.

And it is a generally accepted standard that purveyors of products and even ideas, whether they be a drug, a car, or a conjectured formula for the rejuvenation of rubber, conduct reasonable investigation as to the consequences of its reasonable use in the field of use or application intended. Sometimes it is an ethical consideration, sometimes it is a legal duty. Either way, it is an affirmative obligation.

In this instance, we are not restoring an o-ring in a CV joint. We are potentially placing chemicals on magnetic tape substrate. Anymore than if you were advocating this chemical for use on automobile tires, whether the structural integrity of the tire would be impacted must be contemplated, the impact on that tape should be as well.

And when I have encountered experts at their worst, they doggedly cling to their opinions, no matter the fact pattern or any expanded considerations. I call it the 'expert trap'. These experts are the ones who know more and more, about less and less -- until they know everything about nothing. Those are the ones that cause problems, for everyone. Please don't fall into this trap. Don't cling to your hypothesis come hell or high water.

You seem like a nice, earnest person with some good chemistry background. And you sincerely want to put forward some viable suggestions to restore rubber. I am not trying to be condescending or rude to you. All I am pointing out is that even experts must contemplate the broader environment of their work. And that there is an established set of standards for these things that extends beyond just the chemistry, and into the specific fields, markets and industries into which those works are being contemplated and used.
 
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There is always Terry’s Rubber Rollers. I’ve used him and highly recommend.
With regards to (1), I would include the one chemical widely known to cause harm to tape, water.

THIS. Get a new roller.

And water is harmless to tape, once it is gone. Do you really think we ran tapes across dripping wet rollers? No. We rinsed them often in isopropyl, which flash dries in under a minute. Only when the roller was fully dry did it go back into service.

Did it hurt the rubber? That was not the objective. The objective was to temporarily restore its friction until a new one arrived. And it was topical, so there was no residue concerns. And most importantly, it WORKED.
 
. . . But in this context nobody is talking about using a restored wheel on rare recordings which could be damaged. That was a red herring and a fallacious argument.

I just noticed this. Good grief. How can any reasonable person say this, let alone anyone holding themselves out as an expert?

Did you read the OP's latest posts, and what he was planning to run through the machine? Tape recordings of family members.

You never contemplated the very real possibility that someone is going to run an important tape through their machine after using your chemicals?

I am shocked. Your indifference is astounding.
 
I am shocked. Your indifference is astounding.

I explained what the proposed products contained, how they worked or wouldn't work.

Your fabrication of a case against me is astounding. Oh, right. Lawyer.

The FIRST posting did not mention about rare recordings. Not once. That only recently surfaced.

The OP wrote:
I dug my old Teac A-2060 out of long-term storage, looking to return to service. Naturally, I dug into it to assess feasability of doing so. Capstan was stuck to the idler wheel, resulting in a nasty groove in the wheel, in addition to 2 of the 4 transport drive wheels inside being rock-hard. I recall years ago, one could find rubber rejuvenation fluid, most used for typewriter rollers. Curious to see if there's any help for this thing.​

Nothing about rare recordings. NOTHING.
 
Expert question: What analysis, using generally accepted scientific standards, have you conducted as to what the effects of your formula will be on the commercially established existing stocks of magnetic tape media polymer oxide binders? And if so, what did you conclude? Settle that question, and you are off and running. And if you have not looked into it, why not? In some venues, a jury would be very interested to know those answers.

Dude, all I did was to explain how the proposed products worked or didn't work. I explained what the response from the tape community has been and that adverse results were not reported, but specifically noted that no conclusion could be drawn from this:
...despite such widespread use reports of deleterious effects to tape after rejuvenation have not been widely published, or apparently even published at all. This does not mean that such issues do not exist, it merely means I and others have not seen them. I am therefore agnostic. Given the volatility of the solvents and the size of the plasticizer that it stands to accepted chemical practice that no residue exists and therefore no deleterious effects exist. But, again, this is merely guideline and not proof of anything as no long-term studies have been done.
​
I didn't invent, formulate, or re-formulate any of these products. I don't sell such products and I don't work for the manufacturers.

I explained the ingredients in the proposed products, again proposed by others, and the mechanisms of action.

It is similar to declaring that something will continue to be used until proof of danger has been established, when no meaningful safety tests have even been conducted. Someone here works in pharma. Do you think that new drugs are simply thrown out on the market without extensive testing as to all potential side effects? Is it up to the doctors and patients to prove the dangers before the drug is pulled from the market, where the manufacturer never undertakes those tests? Sick patients sometimes get very rich when that happens.

In reality drugs are tossed out on the market with the bare modicum of testing, with the process manipulated to obtain approval so the off-label uses (where the real money exists) can build profits, and it is very difficult to have harmful drugs pulled. New drugs routinely falsify data to show safety and efficacy. The FDA collects adverse data but publishes it in the most useless format possible. One cannot search by chemical formulation or even drug name; instead, one must download quarterly reports and search each one.

If you read the FDA approval bulletins and side effect reports the side effects are routinely glossed over. Statins, H1 antagonists and PPIs, opiods, COX inhibiters, dopamine antagonists, anticholinergics, you name it. You want to talk about tobacco and asbestos?

Sick patients rarely get rich. These anomalies are used to justify caps on punitive damages when they are, in fact, rare.

Years ago I briefly worked in optical document management systems for FDA approval. The volume of lying in drug applications is pervasive and shocking, the software is designed to bury adverse effects, and the complicity of the software creators walks into the land of the criminal. But that's way off topic.
 
I must specifically note in my defense that the issue of the age of the recording did not surface until posting Number 60, and I never commented on the merits of rejuvenating a roller for digitizing such recordings. It is therefore inappropriate to assert that I was, in any fashion, knowingly proposing unproven methods be used upon rare and irreplaceable artifacts.

The discussion was on a commercial product which was generally accepted by the community as functional. I specifically pointed out that the products for conveyor belts and the like were unsuitable, as were the TSP or highly alkaline (sodium metasilicate) products.

See Posting No. 60:
Reason for wanting to resurrect this old deck is its 1 7/8ips capability, since finding a few tapes in my inherited archives of several hundred 7" tapes with speech recorded at this speed. Already found a recording of my grand-dad (maternal), a Hungarian import, describing events in his life, very enlightening, a few things even Mom was unaware of. Very time_consuming, going through these, & have a long way to go. Was using my Realistic TR-3000, but it's only a 2-speed unit, as is my Revox B-77 .Many of these tapes were estate/yard sale, flea market finds that dear uncle hoarded, so bulk erasing going on. However, i have recordings of historic interest, newscasts of Nixon resigning, Apollo space missions, Winston Churchill speeches, Kennedy assassination, & God knows what else! A lot of very degraded or poorly-recorded stuff, also. All the Kodak tape is physically useless, it degraded like an unburied corpse, but is providing a lot of empty reels, soon to show up on BT. Kodak reels are the best, most user_friendly of the lot.

Sixty posts before this came out. SIXTY.
 
And water is harmless to tape, once it is gone. Do you really think we ran tapes across dripping wet rollers? No. We rinsed them often in isopropyl, which flash dries in under a minute. Only when the roller was fully dry did it go back into service.
.

I'm having trouble with this logic: The same thing can be said with the aforementioned Xylene, which evaporates at a rate twice that of water and has never been attributed to tape damage. Isopropanol added to water is an azeotrope mixture that does not vaporize like the pure alcohol would.

I don't have legal knowledge, but I would think there is still evidence needed to make a case (at least that is the way it is on TV). If I sold a rubber rejuvenation product and the OP sued me stating that it ruined his precious family tapes, wouldn't it be difficult to show neglect on my part since the formula has been used and sold as commercial products for over 50 years by a wide number of companies for this same use and never has there been a reported problem. It is in fact, an accepted industry standard. So then why would this not satisfy the "affirmative obligation" standard? I'm not trying to start another argument, I'm just trying to understand this concept.
And finally, in such a case, wouldn't there be a burden on the OP to demonstrate that it was my product that did the damage and not tape aging or something else or would the burden solely be on me to demonstrate that my product does not do any harm.
 
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I'm having trouble with this logic: The same thing can be said with the aforementioned Xylene, which evaporates at a rate twice that of water and has never been attributed to tape damage. Isopropanol added to water is an azeotrope mixture that does not vaporize like the pure alcohol would.

Yes, quite true, but the boiling point of the mixture is a few degrees lower than the isopropanol alone. Which doesn't matter for this application, of course.

The counter argument to the water vs. hydrocarbon issue for cleaning/rejuvenating a pinch roller is that toluene or xylene diffuses into the rubber and thus takes time to diffuse out, while water and alcohol do not penetrate the rubber and are thus purely surface issues. I know this to be true, because I've used a very sensitive hydrocarbon detector (aka "nose") to register when a hydrocarbon concentration is low enough to not cause issues, using a handwavy meaning for issues. The diffusion for the hydrocarbon solvents is, of course, rapid, so very little remains after a short time in air and one can use a fan over the surface to increase the rate of diffusion. A heat source, such as a hair dryer, to encourage such diffusion is not recommended for reasons best left to the reader to work out.

I point this out not to be argumentative, but because engineers are always explaining why the guillotine blade didn't properly descend. (If you don't get the joke, you didn't go to an engineering school.)
 
I'm having trouble with this logic: The same thing can be said with the aforementioned Xylene, which evaporates at a rate twice that of water and has never been attributed to tape damage. Isopropanol added to water is an azeotrope mixture that does not vaporize like the pure alcohol would.

I don't have legal knowledge, but I would think there is still evidence needed to make a case (at least that is the way it is on TV). If I sold a rubber rejuvenation product and the OP sued me stating that it ruined his precious family tapes, wouldn't it be difficult to show neglect on my part since the formula has been used and sold as commercial products for over 50 years by a wide number of companies for this same use and never has there been a reported problem. It is in fact, an accepted industry standard. So then why would this not satisfy the "affirmative obligation" standard? I'm not trying to start another argument, I'm just trying to understand this concept.
And finally, in such a case, wouldn't there be a burden on the OP to demonstrate that it was my product that did the damage and not tape aging or something else or would the burden solely be on me to demonstrate that my product does not do any harm.

The two of you just won't give it up. Liking each other's posts and all. Lol. I understand.

There is no indication whatsoever that this home brew mix is a formula that "has been used and sold as commercial products for over 50 years by a wide number of companies for this same use". Just some haphazard speculation as to the ingredients. Again, and as you have admitted, the formulae of commercially established products are typically protected trade secrets. And we don't even know if such commercial rubber restoration products are suitable in this environment. And we are not talking about those formulae, we are talking about precisely this one. Your colleague himself has alluded that the solvent component is intended to breakdown the rubber, to more thoroughly deposit some other chemicals into the substrate. But that is not really the test. The test is whether it's ok to use in a tape machine, around and on tapes that are going to be rolling all over it.

To play along with your legal hypothetical, the fact that there was no analysis whatsoever as to the effects of this formula on the tapes that will be foreseeably coming into contact with them, and that the tapes were subsequently damaged after coming into contact with it, could amount to a res ipsa argument for liability (it speaks for itself). And arguing that others do it is not necessary any defense. This recommendation is your 'product' so to speak, and you are responsible for it. Juries are particularly unimpressed by the defense that others are doing it. Just like your parents were when they caught you drinking beer and you may have used the same excuse. I don't want to drill down too much into such matters here. I'm simply playing along with a hypothetical you are posing. And in these things, like in any other matter, reasonable minds may differ. And that's ok.

And no one is suing anyone over this, or making a case against anyone. This is not a legal exercise at all. We are merely talking about applicable standards and methodology. So many of the same considerations may apply, if only to be considerate to others, who may not have your expertise, and may think that this chemical is fine to use around their precious tapes (and they are precious to them). Because they TRUST and believe you. Because you guys are the chemists who contemplate those matters for them.

I think if the proponents were just honest enough to say that these home-brews may rejuvenate rubber rollers, but that users should exercise caution, as it is uncertain whether these chemicals are safe for magnetic tape media, it would come across as more sincere and thoughtful. Just like that warning on the box of rat poison; it's great at killing rats, but due precautions should be taken around people.

The continuing intellectual resistance to just conceding this additional caution is really perplexing. It's as if someone really doesn't want to. Pride, ego? Who knows. I continue to think you are both sincere.

Enough of this. Beware the expert trap. It can be unattractive.

The bystanders can figure this one out for themselves now.
 
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First, there is no conspiracy here of scientists trying to push chemicals on people...please. Second, the general formulation has indeed been used for decades for this purpose, going back to the early days of Ampex. The MG product data sheet for Rubber Renue is very clear as to be a mix of Xylene and Methyl Salicyate. Same with numerous others if you look at the MSDS database. Some are vague, some are not. Many of the old products have disappeared along with tape popularity but some remain in the market (for use on printers, for example). Maybe the legal database would reveal some cases against these companies for product damage? Doubtful but worth checking. I only take the side of this mixture because it has proven to work in some cases (Retrovert provided the reason why), has been in use many years with no ill effects (to my knowledge), and it is non-aqueous. I can't imagine how any of the ingredients would ever get on a tape, but if they did, the small amounts would likely cause little harm since archivists use similar solvents to remove adhesives from tape and in the application of lubricants to tapes.
As I've said many times, I'm a huge fan of preservation and wouldn't want to do anything to damage a tape. I am in favor of caution. But I am also scientifically minded and need some sort of data or reasoning that some practice is harmful before believing it. I am not of the opinion that tapes, or records for that matter, should never be exposed to any chemical or that all chemicals are bad. On the contrary, I've found some to be beneficial (Antistats for example). I don't see any mechanism through which treating a roller with this mixture, as directed, would in any way cause subsequent damage to a tape. OTOH, I've seen many tapes damaged by old, hardened or dirty rollers. This isn't about pride, I have little: if you need to win, then win. If you need the bystanders, then have them. I'm only in it for the knowledge.
 
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