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Sansui big capacitor replacement - disappointment

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Bipolar caps are a problem. The Panasonic SU caps are pretty vanilla caps, but do an acceptable job -most- of the time. The only real alternative is BlackGate non-polars (which are expensive), or Nichicon Muse ES (which are only available in a few sizes, and are too damn big for many applications).

The above applies to signal path caps only...in places where a bipolar is necessary for timing and filtering the choice is largely irrelevant.

Large power supply caps are a whole different animal. You gotta use what you can find, but I much prefer computer-grade screw-terminal caps. Those Panasonic snap-in caps are one of my last choices, although I have not really had any bad experiances using them.
 
Thanks for your insight. Out of curiosity, are screw-terminal caps even used in modern desktop computers? It has been about 6 years since I have had to open up an ATX power supply, but I dont remember seeing any then. Perhaps 'computer grade' in capacitors is like saying 'sushi grade' for fish?
 
used 30YO parts?

IMHO it's not even worth discussion, things like caps and resistors especially are and have been for many years made in mass quantities by automatic machines, modern components are created the same way, with some enhancements for processing, and in some cases newer better raw materials, electronic component manufacture companies have evolved as all modern industries have.
Nearly everything has a service life, cycles of charge/discharge, heat/cool takes a toll.
Would you save and re-use a light bulb if a new replacement was available?
Especially when you must solder it in place?
I have saved and recycled transistors, only due to non-availability or high cost, but certainly I have a lowered expectation of the resulting units long term performance.
When you buy high end caps and resistors it's a lot like the aerospace industry, you may get exactly the same part as the cheap one, however the lot testing for tolerance and adherance to specification is tighter, if say 99.9% of a lot meets the middle of the tolerance band for 100 parts tested that might cost $1 each.
If only 3 parts of 100000 are tested and pass anywhere within the tolerance range those puppies may cost 10 cents.
Ever look closer at most of the BPC stuff sold today?
I have some CD players, one is an Optimus, another a Pioneer, yet a third the nameplate has fallen off, in effort to see what make it was I looked inside all three, much to my chagrin all were exactly the same internally, so I put a Sansui speaker badge on the no-name one and who can say it's not a Sansui?
Casey
 
xoaphexox said:
Out of curiosity, are screw-terminal caps even used in modern desktop computers?
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Wrong kind of computers. More like this:
supercomputer.JPG

reggaenaut said:
Please do not giggle: some people might like the sound that old caps produce.
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There might be a point on the degeneration curve where the sound is pleasing, but the caps don't stop aging...they get older and get worse, causing sonic problems at a minimum, and outright failure of the equipment in many cases.
 
I've never worked in the computer industry, but I'm fascinated with the stuff. I love going down to the recycling place, where I've scored a couple nice audio pieces, to see old servers & such (it's in a warehouse). There's a room with old stuff, setup in displays, like a museum. :smoke:
 
grateful said:
Your logic there HPsenicka is kind of goofy. I will agree that caps are caps and transistors are transistors. It is how they are put together that determines the sound of the amplifer As Echo said circuit topology. Unfortunately it is the perception of what is good sounding is often flawed. A good amplifier has no sound of it's own. It is not warm , cold , fat or anything else. It is a straight wire with gain.
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You are quite right... it was a goofy argument!

It was a facetious comment, as I was trying to make the point that not all caps are equivalent. Perhaps I could have found a better way to make my point.
 
I appreciate all of the comments, it's really been interesting.

Regarding the efficacy of my resolder job: I can only assume it was correct, as it's been undone since. I was was pretty vigilant about tracking my work and checking connections, and both channels were functioning, just producing a decidedly different sound than before, and were returnred to their original sound when I soldered the old ones back in.

Does anyone have a suggestion of capacitor that would be better than the Digikey 2200uf recommended replacement part #p7364-nd that they've been happy with in their 5000X? I really would like to try something proven to be a good replacement. I need to figure out if my taste is for vintage ss sound or just out of spec sound!
 
EchoWars said:
I've said it 100 times...the topology of the amp determines its sonic character, not individual components.

This assumes, of course, that the components used are appropriate for the job, and aren't worn-out 30 year-old parts.

Scrounging parts from ancient gear is the goofiest thing I've heard in a while. Allow me a giggle or two.
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Well it didn't make much sense to me either, which is why I elected to go pretty much the opposite route with a total recap using new parts.

You did a fine job on my AU-819 and I would have tried to retain your services again, but I didn't think you'd be too eager to mess with an AU-D11 II. They are reputed to be a major PIA. I felt lucky to find someone with a couple of prior restores under their belt who was willing to deal with another one.

He did say this was just about his least favorite Sansui to work on and he is a big fan of the brand. Your favorites are the older Kenwoods aren't they?
 
Yes...they tend to be very reliable, sound great, and (mostly) easy to fix. Three big pluses in my book. :yes:
mplsbob said:
Does anyone have a suggestion of capacitor that would be better than the Digikey 2200uf recommended replacement part #p7364-nd that they've been happy with in their 5000X? I really would like to try something proven to be a good replacement. I need to figure out if my taste is for vintage ss sound or just out of spec sound!
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More info needed...what is the physical size of the originals (diameter and length, in mm)? How are they mounted? Are they chassis mounted in clamps? Can replacements be taller? If yes, what's the maximum length?

Standard diameters are 22mm, 30mm, 35mm, 40mm (of these smaller sizes, only the 35mm is available in a screw terminal), 50mm, 63mm, and 76mm.
 
They are chassis mounted in clamps. Again, these are 2200uf 80v for a 5000X.

Original capacitor:
33mm diameter
70mm tall; will take up to approximately 80mm tall capacitor

Replacement purchased:
22mm
40mm

I also have two 1500uf 90v to replace (same dimensions)
Attached is a pic of the replacement on top of the old. Thanks for anyone's advice!
 

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mplsbob said:
The unit sounded like it had been neutered. The impressive low end was gone, leaving me only the option of utilizing the loudness button to make it listenable. I let it ride for a while to see if I just needed to adjust to the change in sound, but my perception just wasn't going to change - it wasn't good. I put the old caps back in, and it's back to its hearty old self.

Sorry for the long post.
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riverrat said:
After I used the amp for awhile, I noticed some humming that did not come through the speakers. I’ve read that bad caps is a common cause of this symptom, and spoke with the tech about recapping it. He told me he'd experimented with cap replacements on the AU-D11 II and found that sound quality declined. So now he stockpiles original Sansui caps from AU-D11 II donor units and uses those instead of new ones. He suspected that something to do with the synergy among the various original caps was why the AU-D11 II is such a great sounding amp, and concluded that it was better not to mess with that unless absolutely necessary.
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These views are in agreement with my own experience.

I have been a hifi enthusiast since the late 60's and have had the ability to handle a soldering iron through the years. Obviously something happened around 1980, because capacitors and resistors manufactured after 1980 have a completely different sound to the earlier components. I have 60 years old electrolytic capacitors which measure like new modern but the sound is very different.

Modern: Both for resistors and capacitors there is a lack of substance of bass and lower midrange, while the treble sounds metallic and resonant.

If you are listening to a completely restored 1970 amplifier, you are in fact probably listening to a modern amplifier (at least in part), not a vintage unit.

In my long experience, components are far more important than circuit design. I listen to music all day and play some acoustical instruments (as an amateur). I feel it is easy to resolve the unnatural artefacts in sound from modern analog technology after the year 1980.

Many technicians seem to disagree and dislike these kind of opinions.

:)
 
I dont know why it is, but even my high-end modern components sound cold and lifeless compared to the vintage gear I have. I ended up selling them on CL and settling for non-5.1
 
xoaphexox said:
I dont know why it is, but even my high-end modern components sound cold and lifeless compared to the vintage gear I have. I ended up selling them on CL and settling for non-5.1
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I got some wise words from Mr Ohshima, former manager of High-End Department of Sansui. He said,

"The difference between professional and armature amp builders is
pros use as inexpensive parts as possible and develop unique (good) sounding
amps. Armatures pick too many expensive parts and end up with less
attractive (flat) sounding amps."

It's not difficult at all to build an amp that has good specs and clean
sound, but it's very difficult to build an amp that sounds good. It's
indeed art, not science
 
Stene said:
I got some wise words from Mr Ohshima, former manager of High-End Department of Sansui. He said,

"The difference between professional and armature amp builders is
pros use as inexpensive parts as possible and develop unique (good) sounding
amps. Armatures pick too many expensive parts and end up with less
attractive (flat) sounding amps."

It's not difficult at all to build an amp that has good specs and clean
sound, but it's very difficult to build an amp that sounds good. It's
indeed art, not science
Click to expand...

Interesting.......very interesting.

Glad I used those "cheap" Sprague big filter caps in my 881 as I have retained the same sound as before. :D

( not to mention the fact they were just slightly smaller than the originals and were an easy fit with a pretty blue color.)
 
Kjell-B said:
Modern: Both for resistors and capacitors there is a lack of substance of bass and lower midrange, while the treble sounds metallic and resonant.

If you are listening to a completely restored 1970 amplifier, you are in fact probably listening to a modern amplifier (at least in part), not a vintage unit.

In my long experience, components are far more important than circuit design.I listen to music all day and play some acoustical instruments (as an amateur). I feel it is easy to resolve the unnatural artefacts in sound from modern analog technology after the year 1980.

Many technicians seem to disagree and dislike these kind of opinions.

:)
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The tip-off here, is your sweeping generalizations.
 
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