• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

SCA-35, phase splitter mod

the presence of the screen to cathode bypass cap maintains the potential between the cathode and screen grid, so no AC NFB can be inserted at that node.
You are right. The effect I speak of is probably non existent or very insignificant.

This is probably wrong but I'll say it. The thinking is that, 1uf borderlines being too small to work exactly as stated at all frequencies. At 20hz, 1u ~ 8k resistor, with the 120k that would put 1/15 of the feedback signal on the screen, at 20hz, in AC form. Following the 1/10 rule for RC stuff this is fine and not to worried about, but I do believe it is there, however small it is.

A quick simulation of the original SCA-35 driver circuit indicates the voltage gain to be about 240 from pentode grid to splitter output. The -3dB point (ahead of the output coupling caps) is about 17 Hz without GNFB.
Also, open loop voltage gain of the modified driver shown in Post #1 is about 83. The -3dB point is about 2.5 Hz.
Jack, are you able to send me the tube model data for the 7199 you are using? All the the 7199 (and substitute tube) models I have tried biased very low, ~400mv instead of the expected 700mv. I would really appreciate a more accurate model to work with, for reasons you already know.

Tell me again why this should be modified?
Pure insanity :biggrin:
http://www.collinsaudio.com/Prosound_Workshop/Capacitor-Sound.pdf
https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt796/s...02735&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
 
Jack, are you able to send me the tube model data for the 7199 you are using? All the the 7199 (and substitute tube) models I have tried biased very low, ~400mv instead of the expected 700mv. I would really appreciate a more accurate model to work with, for reasons you already know.
I use an EF86 and 12AU7 to simulate the 7199. That produces sufficiently accurate results for anything I do relating to this tube. In the original Dynaco SCA-35 circuit, this combination produces 677mV at the cathode in LTSpice.

Jack
 
Last edited:
Modeling the amp I gathered the following images showing the voltage at the cathode (green) and grid g2 (blue) superimposed onto one another at 20, 150 and 800 hz. You can see that at lower frequencies the AC voltage difference V(k-g2) is larger, this would be the tiny amount of added NFB I was talking about.

upload_2022-10-21_21-17-13.png upload_2022-10-21_21-17-47.png

If you are modeling this circuit, try a 6bl8, it draws screen current and biases closer in my trials. With it, open loop gain is infinity with PFB in place, lol. Reducing PFB until its stable gives a gain of 495. The ef86 is stable open loop just fine and closely matches your results for gain. But the ef86 won't give full output power at .15 Vac input, while the 6bl8 does.

The AC feedback voltage at the cathode can't be greater than the AC voltage impressed on the grid. If that were the case, the grid would be positive relative to the cathode during the negative half of the cycle.
For anyone interested, as long as everything in post 35 occurs while staying within limits of the DC bias voltage it works just fine. I think that holding the grid "constant" and driving the cathode like that is more commonly seen in radio tuner designs.

Have a good weekend everyone
 

Attachments

  • upload_2022-10-21_21-56-2.png
    upload_2022-10-21_21-56-2.png
    444 KB · Views: 20
Before I published my latest work on the SCA-35 (Hidden Treasure: Bringing out the Very Best of Dynaco's SCA-35), I did an extensive amount of work regarding the SCA's driver circuit, with the idea of trying to determine which alternate tube would be the best substitute for the 7199. During the course of that work, one of the exercises was to determine differences in gain produced from the circuit from the use of different tube types.

One of the first things I set out to determine was what was the actual amount of GNFB applied to the amplifiers, since (rather uncharacteristically) Dynaco makes no mention of it either in the published specifications, or in the Technical Description of the circuit provided in the Owners Manual. Virtually every other vacuum tube power amplifier from Dynaco offers that specification (usually in the Technical Description), but not so with the SCA.

While many integrated amplifiers may use a "water downed" version of a basic power amplifier offering -- as in (for example) using less GNFB to help achieve the full gain requirements that integrated amplifiers need -- such is not the case with the SCA-35. Being as old school as I am, I'm not much of a modeling guy, but I do measure a lot. With that in mind then, the measured GNFB level of the SCA is 20 db -- just as it is in the SCA's stripped down cousin, the ST-35. I was really quite impressed when I measured that amount of GNFB in the design -- but there is a catch that will be mentioned shortly.

With the input sensitivity well established at 0.15 vac at the input of the power amplifier boards, and 20 db of GNFB in place, some quick calculations will show that the pentode stage of the driver tube in the SCA actually operates with a voltage gain on the order of about 769. This is achieved with the pentode stage operating with a conventional (i.e. w/o PFB) gain of 243 (very close to Jack's modeling), that is then elevated by 10 db of PFB. These are all numbers produced from measurement -- but as mentioned earlier, there's a catch.

To make my measurements, I took a good but discarded PC-10 board as a stand alone piece, and first fully populated it with components that were within 1% of their specified value. This also included the coupling caps and grid return resistors for the output tubes as well. Next, the board was modified as follows:

1. The inputs into the two GNFB networks were grounded. This wasn't really necessary with the capacitive loop, but was important with the resistive loop to ensure DC integrity was maintained at the pentode's cathode terminal.
2.The closest output tube socket was wired to accept a 6CG7/6FQ7 tube, whose sections were paralleled. The plates were connected to the same B+ source powering the driver tube, the grids connected directly the cathode of the splitter, and the cathodes went to ground through a 22k 1W resistor. A coupling cap and 1Meg discharge resistor were hung on the cathode output of this output buffer to serve as the output of the board, so that this tube then drove all the measuring devices, and could do so without any concern for loading down the cathode output of the splitter (eliminating the need of providing an exactly identical load on the plate side as well). As in the original build then, the splitter's outputs only "see" their normal coupling caps and output tube grid return resistors -- identical loads on each output, since the input impedance of the buffer that is directly connected to the splitter's cathode has basically an infinite input impedance. Finally, a heater balance network was provided as well to also mimic the original design. Because of the very low drive impedance of the signal generator used, hum and noise proved to be insignificant in the test, even though the circuit board was out in the open on the bench.
3. The modified board was powered from my Heath bench power supply, adjusted to provide 6.30 vac at the tube heater terminals, and 320 vdc for the tubes to operate from, just as they do in the original design.
4. I used a 1 kHz sine wave test signal applied directly to the input of the board, at precisely 1.5 mV -- the low level to ensure that the output always remained undistorted because of the very high gain available from the circuit. For the purposes of determining the true gain displayed, the output levels as presented here are first divided by 92% to account for the loss of the buffer output stage, and then the resulting figure is divided by the input signal level of .0015 vac to determine the gain developed. In other words, by first dividing the output level by 92%, it then produces an accurate value as would be measured at the cathode of the splitter if a measuring device of infinite input impedance were available.

Using these test conditions, I used 4 brand new never used RCA 7199 tubes and one Raytheon branded 7199 tube. I used these tubes to repeat my earlier tests that I did for the article, because it was just easier to repeat the test than it was to try and find all the notes from my original work. The results were quite interesting. First the measured gain amounts, and then some comments representing my conclusions. The numbers are all RMS values. The output voltages are as appeared at the output of the buffer output stage. The first four tubes are RCAs, while the last is the Raytheon:

Tube #1: Output Voltage = 1.22 vac / 92% / .0015 = Gain of 884.
Tube #2: Output Voltage = 1.70 vac / 92% / .0015 = Gain of 1232.
Tube #3: Output Voltage = 1.56 vac / 92% / .0015 = Gain of 1130.
Tube #4: Output Voltage = 1.20 vac / 92% / .0015 = Gain of 870.
Tube #5: Output Voltage = 1.46 vac / 92% / .0015 = Gain of 1058.

Conclusions -- there were so many from these results, and other observations made:

1.The circuit is quite obviously very tube example sensitive.
2. All of these tubes can easily produce the aforementioned 20 db of GNFB in an operating amplifier, with tubes of higher gain (of course) producing proportionately more GNFB.
3. In my original tests, GNFB levels ranging from 19.5 db to 23.0 db were encountered from different tubes tried. To the design's credit, it took the higher levels of GNFB very much in stride, showing no tendencies towards instability.
4. The circuit is quite sensitive to the B+ level used as well.
5. The circuit is also quite sensitive to the value of the pentode's cathode resistor. Dynaco specified a 5% tolerance for this part. It's unbelievably important! With a value of just + 20%, I was easily and repeatedly seeing gain levels for the pentode section of over 5000 with some tubes!!
6. Gain variations of up to +140% were hardly uncommon. (I originally tested about a dozen or so tubes as I recall. The tubes used for this test were all new and not part of the original testing, but basically prove out the wide variation noted in the earlier tests.)
7. Because of the high open loop gain the pentode section produces with the PFB connection, and the target 20 db of GNFB employed, the circuit does a decent job of holding the required input level relatively stable that's required to produce full power output -- in spite of the wide variation in tube gain. In other words, rather than the input sensitivity moving around, it's the GNFB level that primarily varies with the varying gain levels produced from different tubes.
8. The varying gain levels -- and therefore GNFB levels -- affects measured amplifier performance, and at least by way of damping, can affect sonic performance as well.
9. Is it any wonder that Dynaco decided not to mention the level of GNFB employed in the SCA-35? While Dynaco used the 7199 a lot, the SCA is the only design of theirs using it with PFB.
10. Because of all this nonsense (said affectionately), this circuit will test the limits of any modeling program or modeler!

Is it a neat little circuit? -- no doubt. Does it do a good job of stabilizing the splitter section's operating point? It sure does. Does it work well as designed in practice to deliver solid power amplifier performance? Amazingly so. But good golly miss Molly, the variation in gain produced from one tube example to the next is quite significant -- let alone the variations capable of being produced by the other variables mentioned as well. It's almost like the great country song lyrics that state: I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then! Dynaco apparently designed the circuit so that the typically least performing example of the 7199 could still meet the basic distortion specifications for the unit, and for those units with "hotter" tubes installed -- hey, so much the better, since the circuit seems to take it all in stride. If all of this says anything, it once again speaks remarkably well of the output transformers employed.

Final conclusion, as is always the case with virtually any scientific endeavor, working to squeeze more and more performance out of an amplifier, engine, or whatever will always produce more and more quirks and potential instabilities. Because of the inclusion of the "magic elixir" PFB, so is it the case with this circuit as well, with the effects of PFB likely taken to their maximum practical extreme.

All of this will either stir the pot, or blow the flame out -- but that's the results and conclusions from all my testing of the circuit for anyone so interested to analyze and ponder.

Dave

A quick pic of the AC Gain Tester I used to run the tests of the SCA driver circuit -- bagged and tagged so that I'd remember what the silly thing was when I look back on it in the future. The single tube installed is the 6CG7 output buffer -- built into one of the original output tube sockets to isolate the driver circuit from the outside world. The little ceramic cap that can be seen located to the upper left of the 7199 socket is the cap used in the capacitive GNFB loop -- normally located over by the outside output tube socket, but now relocated to this position so the input to the cap could be easily grounded. The clip leads allow for easy connection to the bench power supply, and little wire studs were installed in appropriate board eyelets to provide for the easy connection of input and output leads via the test equipment's own clip leads. With all the original tests done now, the tester continues to have an ongoing purpose for practical use by allowing me to quickly and easily test and install tubes of nearly identical AC gain to match the performance of the two channels.
12439229-14FB-49A6-9BEF-47B181647287.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Jesus -- No doubt that some level of NFB could theoretically be shown to exist at the G2 terminal at any frequency because the coupling cap is not perfect in its function. There will be a point at which however above a given frequency it is statistically insignificant while below that point, such caps are used extensively to help aid the LF stability of the design. I strongly suspect that is the case here. Hafler specifically makes mention of this fact regarding the value of the pentode G2 bypass cap used in his MK II and MK III amplifiers.

Dave
 
Dave,
did you repeat these measurments with any of the potential replacement tubes ( 6u8, 6bl8 etc ) ?
 
Peter -- Sure did, and the basic outcome of those tests was basically the same -- always producing an OLG that would allow for 20 db of GNFB to be produced in the amplifier, but also displaying significant variations in the actual AC gain level produced above the minimum gain needed from one tube example to the next. In my tests, besides the 6GH8A/6U8A, "real" 6LN8 and 6EA8 tubes also performed quite well, while 6BL8 tubes proved unworkable -- producing extremely high gain levels of typically around 10,000 or more. When using alternate tubes in the circuit, all of them could mimic the performance of the 7199 very well -- as long as the appropriate measures were taken to address their HF response (pentode) and Gm (triode) differences (all mentioned in the article). With those accounted for, the one remaining difference to account for is the internal arrangement of the heater connections used within the alternate tubes: Because of this difference, the alternate tubes will always produce more overall hum than 7199 tubes do in the SCA-35. Oh, it can easily be nulled out by the hum balance controls, but then phono hum will be high. Or, the phono hum can be nulled out, but then low level power amplifier hum will be apparent. The fix is to install the alternate heater circuit I developed and presented in the thread which allows for all tubes -- 7199 or alternates -- to achieve the lowest possible hum in both the power amplifier and phono sections at the same time.

Finally, as I also mentioned in the thread, given the wide variations in performance that is possible with this design from one tube example or tube type to the next, watch out for wannabe tubes -- that is, tubes that are marked as a given type, but are really a different tube type deemed as an appropriate general replacement, and simply re-labeled to reflect the tube it's now masquerading to be. A lot of this went on at the end of the tube days, so unless a tube has its real identity etched into the glass, its true identity is always suspect when it comes to all the various tri/pent tube alternates. At least that can't happen with the 7199!!

Dave
 
Last edited:
That was an excellent story, I really like the 6CG7 buffer, thank you for sharing :king: Dave :king:

It has stirred the pot in my head and been very helpful ;)

Cheers
 
Last update,

First, I want it to be clear that the "SCA-35", as whole package, was, is, a great piece of kit. Dave's work on the design takes it even further and I recommend to anyone, follow his sound advice.

My proposed changes, ruin a "SCA-35", in an attempt, to maybe, lower distortion, from the input of the power amp board to the speaker output. Taking advantage of what I see as a loophole in the design. -20 dB GNFB, -20 dB tone controls, +10dB PFB, implies to me, there is enough gain available to get -20dB GNFB without PFB, simple as that.

Armed with the information Dave supplied I was egged on. The accuracy of the simulated circuit seemed poor and was certainly limited by the tube models. The low specified 30v g2 voltage of the 7199 in the SCA-35 seems to push the limit of most tube models. Their code is derived from charts based on a higher g2 voltage (90+) and interpolating down to 30v seems to create a lot of error. But following the RCA application note, general trends of the simulation and how the real circuit performs I end up at the following.

Original circuit (Simulated)
CL, af= 91.5, 39.3 dB
OL, a=746, 57.5 dB
->GNFB 18.3 dB

Modified, shown below (simulated)
CL, af=44.3, 32.9 dB
OL, a=307, 46.22 dB
->GNFB 13.3 dB

Without some proper real world stability testing, that is as far as I will push the GNFB and seemingly can push the operating point (in theoretical favor of low distortion). The real g2 voltage with these changes is now below 30v, and the cathode voltage on the triode is pushing 90+ (this means lifting the heater DC potential higher to maintain a proper safety margin). Also, as Jack mentioned, the cut off point is very low. Nothing is really there to limit gain at lower frequencies. Changing the 1uf to .22uf in simulations limited the low frequency gain and better mimicked the original designs OL cut off point of around 20hz.

If I could tune the feedback compensation properly, I would continue to up the GNFB to around 18-20 dB, up Rk to 620 as part of that process, try .22 vs 1u and then call it finished. I'm not sure if I'll ever get there while these 7199s are alive though.

Thanks to everyone for the guidance and help,
Cheers


upload_2022-10-25_13-51-46.png
upload_2022-10-25_14-5-13.png

P.S. EL504, in the simulations connecting the screen bypass cap to the cathode always produced less distortion and more gain, win win. Your advice and guideline to tie the screen cap to the cathode always got the best results in my simulations.
 
Back
Top Bottom