Shibata on an M91ED? Why not!

[wualta]

Some days, we can't FIND the box.

Thanks for taking one for the team! Take pictures!

 

[GrampaDave]

JICO N97LT pictures

Got some pictures of my JICO N97LT that I bought some years ago. I took these with an auto-focus point-n-shoot held against one eyepiece of a really cheap stereo scope.

1. Telescope joint in the cantilever.
2. Clear diamond on bonding post.
3. Lets you assess the tubing wall thickness.
4. A view down the armature tube showing the Shure-style magnet.
5. Down the back end of the tube: there's no dynamic damper. (I was compressing the suspension to center the magnet.)
6. Tie-wire solder joint. They solder it then cut off the excess.

Dave

 

[GrampaDave]

SHURE N16 and VN45HE pictures

Off-topic since they don't fit the M91 body, but I wanted to include these pictures of the Shure N16 and VN45HE for handy comparison to the JICO N97LT.

Actually, I don't believe the N97LT is suitable for the M91 either; it's too loose. If my M91, M95, and M97x bodies are telling the truth, Shure reduced the pole spacing ever so slightly as time went forward. I tried the N97LT in all three.

M97x: Takes a firm push to seat, a firm pull to remove. Feels just right.
M95: Gentle pressure seats, a light tug removes. Does not feel secure.
M91: A light touch and it FALLS OUT. Not usable without shimming.

Anyway, the pictures:

1 & 2. Shure N16. Nude vs bonded HE tip, and finer telescoped cantilever than JICO N97LT.
3. Shure VN45HE. Even better nude HE tip, and finer-still telescoped cantilever. The absence of vignetting in the picture indicates bigger zoom and yet it appears the same size as the N16; therefore, it's thinner in real life. (What looks like a glob of dirt on the tip is a dab of stray glue.)

I couldn't get a usable picture, but looking up the rear of the VN45HE armature tube shows a flat, circular object which probing reveals to be rubber. That's the dynamic damper, of specific mass and damping, attached to the back of the magnet.

Dave

 

[wualta]

Got some pictures of my JICO N97LT that I bought some years ago. ...

Ah, nice shots! It looks exactly like my Astatic NMR stylus from dualparts, except mine has the valuable letter A with lightning bolts inked on it. Well, now I know where this stylus came from.

Thanks, JICO-- keep making them this way. Just say no to Zualum. And by "this way" I mean simply "as true to the original as possible". To my knowledge, no other aftermarket maker ever tried to duplicate the telescoped-cantilever trick.

Back to the clear-red probably-not-Excel "614-DQ": Just tried it in a Shure M104E body and it works, but the level is lower than expected. Not bad, but lower. The extra width of the Shure v-bottom cartridge bodies won't let the stylus shank go in as far as the M91E/ED body will. Sounds good though.

More worrisome is the upward angle the stylus is making with the record in this setup. This really should be done in a half-inch setup with the ability to stick wedges under the adapter to tilt the cartridge down at the front. Not that you couldn't use it the unwedged way, but once you've seen it, you'd really rather not.

Looseness/tightness in Shure bodies, in my experience, is an entirely random phenomenon. YMMV.
.

 

[srs735]

Some days, we can't FIND the box.

Thanks for taking one for the team! Take pictures!

When we can't "FIND" the box we might become more creative :scratch2:

"taking one for the team", I thought I was being an opportunist by jumping on the information people like you provide us novices.

Got some pictures of my JICO N97LT that I bought some years ago.
Dave

Great photos, thanks for sharing them and your information :thmbsp:

 

[GrampaDave]

Ah, nice shots! <snip>
Looseness/tightness in Shure bodies, in my experience, is an entirely random phenomenon. YMMV.

Thanks.

I'd like to believe this, but I have a Pfanstiehl 4773-DHL (supposed to sub for N111HE) which flatly won't go into my M97x body. (That is, it might, but it would take more force than I'm willing to exert.) Setting aside the possibility that Pf simply screwed up and stamped them too big, shouldn't an "N111HE" fit an M97x? I thought they were the same era.

I guess it could just be happenstance that my Era II, III, and IV M-bodies seem to be graduated. It's only a sample of one each.

Dave

 

[wualta]

When we can't "FIND" the box we might become more creative.

Exactly. I'm a great believer in Learning By Stumbling Around, 3 Stooges style, as I look for the box. Which you will know if you read my posts, or try to.

Anyway, in this case you're "taking one" because you're paying more for this stylus than anyone has so far, so far as we know. Our fingers, they are like so totally crossed in, like, hopefulness.

 

[wualta]

As I mentioned above, when you get the Excel/Sanyo and put it in your RXT-4 / M97, you may find that it's aimed upwards a little, which is exactly the wrong way to be aimed a little. To counteract this, you'll want to aim the RXT-4 nose down in its headshell to get the diamond lined up with the 20° groove tilt.

I noticed this when I tried the Excel in both my M92E and M104E bodies.

Oh, if only Shure had made its integrated headshell models (M97ED/HE-AH) with adjustable VTA as ADC did with its Integras!

I also noticed what I thought was a lower level from the Excel in my M92E body, so you might want to trim some plastic from the stylus to get better insertion. I did notice more output in the high treble due to the better magnetic linearity of the Era III-and-later bodies, although not quite as much as with the V15 RS.

 

[srs735]

I can't let y'all have all the fun. I just ordered a Shibata from Merlin and will try it on my RXT4, and maybe a Shure P mount if I get one :thmbsp:

I guess if I'd paid a little more attention to all of the detals I would have realized that the body styles are completely different between the RXT4 and the M91ED. :scratch2:

So I have a genuine "Shure 97 ED" coming from stereoneedles.

I also have a Shure M91ED cartridge coming to try the Shibata on

I don't always get it right the first time, but I am persistent

 

[wualta]

... I would have realized that the body styles are completely different between the RXT4 and the M91ED...

They are, and you can use a 614-DQ in the RXT-4 as-is, though I can't help but think you'd be happier with the sound if you tilted the cartridge and trimmed the stylus. The "wings" do hit the wider sides of the v-bottom body and prevent insertion as deep as with the old square-bottom bodies.

Having said that, you'll enjoy hearing the M97ED (= RXT-4 + nude diamond) as it originally was. It was a maximum-bang-per-buck design and can be enjoyed on that basis as well as on an absolute level.

 

[wualta]

About Excel (and whoever it was that made their cartridges): It's just possible that you'll run across a company called alternately EEI or Elite or Elite Townshend or just Townshend (an English company that imported EEI cartridges from Australia and also made/marketed some interesting turntables). You can still get some of the styli from UK vendors like Mantra Audio UK. Not too expensive for USians, considering the exchange rate. Of course, for USians, getting the bodies for reasonable amounts is the problem.

There was also a Swedish company named Sontra that used the ES-70. Don't know anything about Sontra, but Mantra sells/sold some ES-70-compatible styli for them.

Don't know if any of these are "original" or "genuine", but I suspect that one of Japan's mad OEMers of cartridges is also a mad OEMer of styli, so it's entirely possible some "aftermarket" styli are the same as the "aforemarket" styli.

Update: the JICO N97LT stylus works very nicely in my Excel ES-70S body. I imagine any Shure styli designed for 700mH carts will sound good there. I was lucky and got one of the last JICO-N97LT styli from the going-out-of-business sale at Garage 'A Records. Same construction as the Astatic one.

 

[srs735]

I finally got around to trying the "red shibata" from "merlin" on the M91ed. The stylus really didn't go in very far. The sound output was very low and veiled. This isn't worth listening to

So now I have an Excel ES70SH coming for me to try the Shibata stylus on next. Maybe it will be a better fit :scratch2:

 

[Van_Isle]

OK so as I mentioned I have the Excel cartridge ... and the EVG stylus.

Also I have a V15 MkIV with the original Shure stylus and a RXT-4 with the original stylus and a NOS Shure N16 and a M97 Era IV with a Shure HE stylus and the JICO HE stylus and a M91ED with the Shure Hi-Track and an EVG elliptical replacement.

Anything you want me to test out / try out? ... or that I should really be trying out?

 

[wualta]

...trying the "red shibata" from "merlin" on the M91ed. The stylus really didn't go in very far. The sound output was very low and veiled.

Interesting. Since you're dealing with a different stylus, it could be-- who knows-- that the one Merlin's selling is actually the real thing, an S70X4, possibly with lighter (weaker) magnets to keep the response and separation going out to 50kHz. Dunno. I suppose we'll find something out when your ES-70SH shows up. When it does, measure the DC resistance of the coils with a digital ohmmeter and I'll measure my ES-70S. If yours is higher, it's a good bet the inductance is higher, and that would not be optimal.


Van Isle: Interesting collection. See what happens if you poke a Type IV stylus into the old M97. The fit will of course be loose, but you can use shims and putty to stabilize it if it's that bad. The inductance will be off, but not that far.

This is a combination that never seems to be tried, except by greed-crazed eBay sellers who will jam anything into anything backwards and claim it's in working condition. The highs will suffer because the IV had the laminated magnetic cores/poles and the M97's were merely thinned out (~ a single lamination). It will probably sound something like the current M97xE. That's my guess. Not a particularly useful combination, but one that's been oddly ignored.
.

 

[srs735]

I finally got around to trying the "red shibata" from "merlin" on the M91ed. The stylus really didn't go in very far. The sound output was very low and veiled. This isn't worth listening to

So now I have an Excel ES70SH coming for me to try the Shibata stylus on next. Maybe it will be a better fit :scratch2:

A perfect fit :thmbsp:

What a sweet combination

 

[wualta]

So my fears were unfounded? Good!
If you don't hear a big treble rolloff, then it's probably a 380 to 400mH body like my ES-70S. And you got the body for less than you'd pay for a Shure M91ED these days.
.

 

[srs735]

So my fears were unfounded? Good!
If you don't hear a big treble rolloff, then it's probably a 700mH body like my ES-70S. And you got the body for less than you'd pay for a Shure M91ED these days.

To my ears the combination sounds very nice. However my hearing isn't what it used to be. As a mechanic I've spent too many years listening to air ratchets, impacts, die grinders.........

I'm out of town, but when I get back home next week I'll check the readings on the cartridge before I mislead others

A perfect fit :thmbsp:

What a sweet combination

I was happy enough that I ordered another of the cartridge's and 2 (One stylus as a spare) more of the red "Sanyo MG 40X" from the same seller on Ebay. I planned on giving them to one of the kids. I set the cartridge and stylus up last night, what a terrible sound. So I looked and the stylus was missing, just a mound, no needle. I looked at the other stylus and it is intact.

The seller does say on his site "no refunds or exchanges". I sent him (or her) an email last night and haven't heard back from them

So I don't know if I can recommend this seller anymore or not???

 

[wualta]

However my hearing isn't what it used to be. As a mechanic I've spent too many years listening to air ratchets, impacts, die grinders.........

I worked tool'n'die briefly about 25 years ago, so I sympathize.

Believe it or not, the fact that the diamond fell off is a good sign, sort of, because it means it's a diasa mount like mine, and probably the same stylus made by the same maker. The "mound" you see is the sapphire stump the diamond sits on.

I lost diamonds off two diasa 4614-DQ styli before I got one that stuck. My dealer replaced one, and when I knocked off another one myself, I knew this stylus had a "diasa problem" that's not unique to Excel or whoever made this one (ADC and Empire had some problems too), and certainly not unique to a single vendor.

And I don't baby my diamonds, because the forces any moving groove subjects them to will not be dainty. And I've never lost a diamond that was either nude or bushed. So I figured most of you would have no trouble at all, and I was right.. until today.

Even though they should be about as rugged as any other bonded stylus, in practice I'd advise diasa owners to lavish baby-soft TLC on their styli to ensure that their stay with us will be long-- not that I expect this to help a whole lot (see above statement about what a groove does to a stylus). Your experience added to mine tells me this wasn't a purely random problem or a curse placed on me by an old die maker with only three fingers, but a manufacturing problem brought to light by age, from a time when diasa was a new technique.

I should mention that Gary at tVOM replaced my first virtually-out-of-box loss cheerfully and I would expect "Merlin" to do the same. Good luck!.

 

[srs735]

I should mention that Gary at tVOM replaced my first virtually-out-of-box loss cheerfully and I would expect "Merlin" to do the same. Good luck!

I would hope "Merlin" would too.

However I sent him an email a week ago and haven't heard back from him, I sent him another email today

:scratch2: :scratch2: :scratch2:

 

[wualta]

I hope the situation you described was straightened out with a minimum of drama.

My Merlin 4614-DQ arrived and examining it I found two things: it's identical in construction to my original stylus from Gary at tVOM that started this thread, ie, a good-sounding diasa-mount stylus despite its nongenuinity -- and the discovery that it's not a Shibata... but not an elliptical either. Rather, it is, or appears to be, a four-cut diamond similar (but not identical) to Empire's old 4Dimensional, like so:

There are two small facets on both front and back either side of center, and who knows what this thing is or what it was called. Is it an Ogura diamond? Heck if I know.

Interestingly, one of the last 4614-DQs I got from Gary before he ran out was packaged by Fidelitone and is a real Shibata, but bushed (="bonded"), and the diamond and its metal bushing were ground at the same time, making the Shibata shape obvious and shaving some mass off the bushing. Other than a slightly longer noncranked daddy-long-legs-looking cantilever, it looks just like my other clear-red 4614-DQs but closer to the genuine ES-70EX4 stylus.

Adventures In Styli Education. Learning should be an adventure.

I also managed to get another ES-70S body for reasonable, and for the record, the body inductance hovers around the 400 mH mark-- I measured it three times. DC Resistance (DCR) is 470 to 480 ohms, give or take.