Should I upgrade my table or replace it?

[AceTechHD]

Good move. Definitely look at upgrading the cart. Those Shures are definitely a weak point. (I know from owning one that the M44-7 conical is a very poor tracker--it simply is too fat to fit the grooves without destroying them. That sibilance is indicative of future groove damage!)

The 1200 deserves a lot better. The Nagaoka is a good start; the further you go up their line, the better it gets. I believe the stylus assemblies are interchangeable, so if you started with the MP-110, you likely could hop up to the 200 replacement stylus (or higher) in the future.

I was actually going to ask if anyone has had any experience with upgrading the styli on Nagaoka carts. In theory all of their cartridge bodies should be exactly the same, but after my experience with the M44E & M447 bodies I'd say it's possible that the more expensive Nagaoka carts are better made than their cheaper siblings.

Also as an aside, the price of the MP-500 styli is a whopping $250. That's insanity, but then again if all their cartridge bodies are the same one could order the MP-110 and the JN-P500 stylus and have the MP-500 for a fraction of the price.

 

[AceTechHD]

After a bit of thinking I've decided to go ahead and order the Jico N44E stylus. The Shure M44E has opened up in ways I never would have imagined. After upgrading my table and the knock off (andydeals?) stylus, the cartridge has an unreal detail, presence, and feeling. Just to reiterate the main two issues I have with the sound would be the sibliance and wicked surface noise on even the cleanest records. A few days ago I was curious what the OEM N44E would sound like on my new table so I decided to try it out. To my surprise the OEM (N44E) stylus drastically lowered the surface noise! While the surface noise was all but inaudible, I noticed the bass was quite a bit weaker and the highs were rolled off. Now if the Jico stylus could keep the detail, presence, and feeling of the N447 stylus and the low surface noise of the OEM N44E stylus I am 100% certain the M44E cartridge would sound better than even the Nagaoka MP-110. Even though I was admittedly doubting what @malden said about the Jico stylus, I now believe he c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ b̶e̶ is likely correct. We will soon find out.

Shure M44E w N447 stylus Vs. Nagaoka MP-110 Vs. AT440MLB

 

[shelly_d]

I just listened to the 2 selections. I will need to listen again to actually firm up my impressions but I think that the MP-110 has a higher output level, assuming that the recordings were both made at the same settings on the input device, but the Shure has better transient response. That is about all I came away with on the first pass, but again I will need to revisit the recordings to confirm my impressions. As far as the balance of frequencies is concerned, I am of the opinion that an equalizer can do a reasonably good job of altering the bass, mid. treble mix of music to get the two close, I think, but no post playback equalizer is going to improve the transients. If I am correct about what I think I heard, stay with the Shure. You can probably improve the bass response with equalization (tone controls) and perhaps getting the cartridge loading capacitance into the sweet spot, but you can't improve the dynamic response once the stylus has run past a spot on the groove.

Shelly_D

 

[AceTechHD]

Now that I've spent a little time with the Jico N44E Improved stylus I can give a fair overview of how it changed the sound of the cartridge. Originally my issues with the Shure M44E cartridge surrounded wicked sibilance issues many of my albums would produce. Mainly new wave pop and rock artists such as Joe Jackson, Michel Jackson, and Fleetwood Mac would distort on several tracks. Does the Jico N44E eliminate all traces of sibilance? The answer is unfortunately no, but most instances of sibilance are completely gone. The Jico N44E effortlessly tracks Michel Jackson's Thriller; which marks the first time I've heard the album on vinyl with absolutely no sibilance. Some albums still exhibit some cases of sibilance. Such as Fleetwood Mac's Tango In The Night. It appears that some albums were simply recorded too hot for the N44E to handle without some distortion.

The Jico N44E improved stylus changes the sound of the M44E dramatically. The OEM N44E is big and loud with a sharp top end. Jico's stylus is loud, but exibits much more nuance and detail. The bass flows like no other, the top end is intricate and delicate, and surface noise can often be quieter than tape hiss heard on the recording. While I do miss the sharp top end the OEM N44E produced it's impossible to ignore the improvements the jico stylus offers.

Listening to the Shure M44E with the Jico N44E stylus it's hard to believe it's the same exact cartridge that was distorting all over the place not so long ago. I would have posted this sooner but frankly I've been too busy listening to every album I own, lol. Apart from the few albums that still exhibit sibilance I'd have to say the Jico stylus makes the Shure M44E into one beast of a cartridge.

Dreams (M97xE) - Fleetwood Mac - 44,100Hz Uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1byKWWXisAw1dTzN-aZMZmkpjKlr7qKZn/view

Dreams (OEM N44E) - Fleetwood Mac - 44,100Hz Uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JluA06nHE_G0_5B-Y78PqQVBtwMLmRYY/view

Dreams (Jico N44E improved) - Fleetwood Mac - 44,100Hz Uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_9dgUkvZb4ofp3cNah9AcTrxyF616lGd

@malden Currently I'm tracking at 2.25g. What would you say is a good VTF for this combo?

 

[malden]

Now that I've spent a little time with the Jico N44E Improved stylus I can give a fair overview of how it changed the sound of the cartridge. Originally my issues with the Shure M44E cartridge surrounded wicked sibilance issues many of my albums would produce. Mainly new wave pop and rock artists such as Joe Jackson, Michel Jackson, and Fleetwood Mac would distort on several tracks. Does the Jico N44E eliminate all traces of sibilance? The answer is unfortunately no, but most instances of sibilance are completely gone. The Jico N44E effortlessly tracks Michel Jackson's Thriller; which marks the first time I've heard the album on vinyl with absolutely no sibilance. Some albums still exhibit some cases of sibilance. Such as Fleetwood Mac's Tango In The Night. It appears that some albums were simply recorded too hot for the N44E to handle without some distortion.

The Jico N44E improved stylus changes the sound of the M44E dramatically. The OEM N44E is big and loud with a sharp top end. Jico's stylus is loud, but exibits much more nuance and detail. The bass flows like no other, the top end is intricate and delicate, and surface noise can often be quieter than tape hiss heard on the recording. While I do miss the sharp top end the OEM N44E produced it's impossible to ignore the improvements the jico stylus offers.

Listening to the Shure M44E with the Jico N44E stylus it's hard to believe it's the same exact cartridge that was distorting all over the place not so long ago. I would have posted this sooner but frankly I've been too busy listening to every album I own, lol. Apart from the few albums that still exhibit sibilance I'd have to say the Jico stylus makes the Shure M44E into one beast of a cartridge.

Dreams (M97xE) - Fleetwood Mac - 44,100Hz Uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1byKWWXisAw1dTzN-aZMZmkpjKlr7qKZn/view

Dreams (OEM N44E) - Fleetwood Mac - 44,100Hz Uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JluA06nHE_G0_5B-Y78PqQVBtwMLmRYY/view

Dreams (Jico N44E improved) - Fleetwood Mac - 44,100Hz Uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_9dgUkvZb4ofp3cNah9AcTrxyF616lGd

@malden Currently I'm tracking at 2.25g. What would you say is a good VTF for this combo?

Excellent post!

The N44E is designed to track between 1.5 and 4 grams. In my Technics SL 1800, I track it between 2-1/2 and 3 grams but if you are experiencing sibilance on some recordings, you may want to try increase the tracking force. In my Garrard Lab 80, I set the N44E to at least 3 grams.

How are the tone-arm bearings? There should be absolutely no slop and the tone-arm should float freely when set to zero.

 

[AceTechHD]

Excellent post!

The N44E is designed to track between 1.5 and 4 grams. In my Technics SL 1800, I track it between 2-1/2 and 3 grams but if you are experiencing sibilance on some recordings, you may want to try increase the tracking force. In my Garrard Lab 80, I set the N44E to at least 3 grams.

How are the tone-arm bearings? There should be absolutely no slop and the tone-arm should float freely when set to zero.

The tonearm on my Sl-1200 likely needs to be replaced. While it will float at 0, the arm will snap back to the rest if I don't put my finger in its path. I noticed this relatively early on, but since I got a pretty good deal on the table, and the anti skate works just fine I found it pointless to return the table. NOS tonearms sell for under $150 on the auction site, and maybe I'll upgrade to a different arm altogether.

 

[Deleted member 349134]

You got it! My Lab-1600 had it's stock AT P-mount cart. Had incredibly low surface noise and unreal stereo separation. First time I heard that table I didn't believe what I was hearing. The table cost me an earth shattering $10. Unfortunately the Lab-1600 began running really slowly. I wasted money ordering a new belt for it and it still ran like molasses. Decided to see how much it would cost to get it repaired and they wanted over $100. Safe to say that is the end of my Realistic Lab-1600 may it rest in peace in my closet. You read my mind exactly. I'm going to go ahead and order the NAGAOKA MP-110H and I'm going to make a comparison video and upload it to YouTube. I might also (probably not) get a new stylus for the 44E while looking around for a good used SL-1200. Here's the last recording I made from the Lab-1600. Paul McCartney - Dear Boy (16bit uncompressed 48,000hz): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4yETdJ-P_rFbXBNQTBReEVWNWM/view

I know this is ages old but did you ever find out why it was running slow? I’ve just got a lab 1600 for free and it runs about 4-5% slower than the listed speeds, trying to find an economical fix for it.

 

[Van_Isle]

I'm not sure if Ace had any further success, but the LAB 1600 has a DC-servo controlled motor. It also appears to be a re-badged Toshiba SR-V10. It doesn't have any external pitch controls, but it has variable resistor trim-pots for adjusting motor speed. One for 33-1/3 and one for 45 rpm. Assuming the motor is fine, belt in good condition (and proper size) and in general the motor control circuit is in good shape (e.g. IC chip not shot / not desperately needing new capacitors) then cleaning and adjusting those trim-pots is most likely the fix. Also cleaning the speed selector switches is often helpful. Cleaning the trim-pots and switches with contact cleaner (e.g. Deoxit D5) would not be possible without opening the turntable. You would have to open the bottom of the turntable. Check out the service manual for the Toshiba on vinylengine. It gives detail on opening the turntable: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/toshiba/sr-v10.shtml Same site only has the owner's manual for the LAB 1600: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/realistic/lab-1600.shtml