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Should I upgrade my table or replace it?

Alright, now that I've owned my Technics SL-1200 MK2 for a little while I can say with certainty i'm 100% satisfied with my purchase. I wanted to make sure the table would preform day after day before I attempted to share my findings. With all of that said I ordered the table from Guitar Center online for $325. The table came with a Shure M447 cartridge body fitted with a brand new (genuine) Shure N447 stylus, and a very heavy ODYOUSA flight case. Quick aside, I recommend anyone who's looking to buy an Technics SL-1200 to check out Guitar Center's website. Simply type "Technics" in the search bar and you'll be greeted with plenty of used SL-1200 tables. Call the store that has the table you're interested in and ask what it comes with. Using this method will grant you a 45 day warranty in which if your table decides not to work, Guitar Center will pay the return shipping and if they're unable to repair it you get a full refund (unlike a certain bay). I am not being paid my Guitar Center to tell you any of this, I'm just a happy owner of a brand spanking used SL-1200 MK2.

8vrI9XZ.jpg


TfMemIe.jpg


XH9Etch.jpg


8fwtXlb.jpg


Upon receiving the table I quickly aligned the cartridge and proceeded to play Michel Jackson's Thriller. To my surprise the sound I heard was deep, full, and extremely dynamic. I was blown away, but something seemed a tad off. I decided to fit my previous cartridge the Shure M44E with my new N447 stylus, the results were instantly audible. The opening track Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' sounded much more dynamic than before. I found that the much newer M447 cartridge body sounded much darker overall, and while in it's own right the M447 sounded excellent when compared to the M44E it could't stand a chance. Safe to say I haven't messed with the M447 since. I must add that the sibilance issue is certainly still prevalent (though much less noticeable), but I think I've found the main source of the problem; more on that later. I Have to give props to the M44E, it continues to surpass my expectations. If you're as curious about the matter as I know you are, I've prepared a sample of both cartridge bodies using the same genuine Shure N447 Stylus and the very same alignment on both cartridges.

Michael Jackson - The Girl Is Mine (M447 body) - 48,000hz uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4yET ... mJsa3dnSzQ

Michael Jackson - The Girl Is Mine (M44E body) - 48,000hz uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4yET ... TVWUnEtZWc

Now that we've got that out of the way It seems @HiFiThor was spot on regarding my substantial turntable upgrade showing the weaknesses of my other components. If I wasn't constancy digitally archiving my LP's I would likely never notice, but nevertheless the surface noise issue began to become more and more prevalent ever since the "brand new toy" effect wore off. My conclusion to the problem is that my dear Onkyo's phono stage must be the corporate in this heinous surface noise issue and more importantly that nasty sibilance. The solution I've come up with is ordering a Schiit Mani phono preamp and running that through one of the Onkyo's aux inputs. The Mani has gained some of the most commercial praise among HIFI enthusiasts so I figure that should easily fix the surface noise issue (and improve the sound greatly overall). Well those are my findings since owning a Technics SL-1200 MK2. Anyone have experience with the Mani phono preamp, and do you think it will solve my problems?

Thanks for reading, and most importantly :rockon:
 
AceTechHD said:
Alright, now that I've owned my Technics SL-1200 MK2 for a little while I can say with certainty i'm 100% satisfied with my purchase. I wanted to make sure the table would preform day after day before I attempted to share my findings. With all of that said I ordered the table from Guitar Center online for $325. The table came with a Shure M447 cartridge body fitted with a brand new (genuine) Shure N447 stylus, and a very heavy ODYOUSA flight case. Quick aside, I recommend anyone who's looking to buy an Technics SL-1200 to check out Guitar Center's website. Simply type "Technics" in the search bar and you'll be greeted with plenty of used SL-1200 tables. Call the store that has the table you're interested in and ask what it comes with. Using this method will grant you a 45 day warranty in which if your table decides not to work, Guitar Center will pay the return shipping and if they're unable to repair it you get a full refund (unlike a certain bay). I am not being paid my Guitar Center to tell you any of this, I'm just a happy owner of a brand spanking used SL-1200 MK2.

8vrI9XZ.jpg


TfMemIe.jpg


XH9Etch.jpg


8fwtXlb.jpg


Upon receiving the table I quickly aligned the cartridge and proceeded to play Michel Jackson's Thriller. To my surprise the sound I heard was deep, full, and extremely dynamic. I was blown away, but something seemed a tad off. I decided to fit my previous cartridge the Shure M44E with my new N447 stylus, the results were instantly audible. The opening track Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' sounded much more dynamic than before. I found that the much newer M447 cartridge body sounded much darker overall, and while in it's own right the M447 sounded excellent when compared to the M44E it could't stand a chance. Safe to say I haven't messed with the M447 since. I must add that the sibilance issue is certainly still prevalent (though much less noticeable), but I think I've found the main source of the problem; more on that later. I Have to give props to the M44E, it continues to surpass my expectations. If you're as curious about the matter as I know you are, I've prepared a sample of both cartridge bodies using the same genuine Shure N447 Stylus and the very same alignment on both cartridges.

Michael Jackson - The Girl Is Mine (M447 body) - 48,000hz uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4yET ... mJsa3dnSzQ

Michael Jackson - The Girl Is Mine (M44E body) - 48,000hz uncompressed:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4yET ... TVWUnEtZWc

Now that we've got that out of the way It seems @HiFiThor was spot on regarding my substantial turntable upgrade showing the weaknesses of my other components. If I wasn't constancy digitally archiving my LP's I would likely never notice, but nevertheless the surface noise issue began to become more and more prevalent ever since the "brand new toy" effect wore off. My conclusion to the problem is that my dear Onkyo's phono stage must be the corporate in this heinous surface noise issue and more importantly that nasty sibilance. The solution I've come up with is ordering a Schiit Mani phono preamp and running that through one of the Onkyo's aux inputs. The Mani has gained some of the most commercial praise among HIFI enthusiasts so I figure that should easily fix the surface noise issue (and improve the sound greatly overall). Well those are my findings since owning a Technics SL-1200 MK2. Anyone have experience with the Mani phono preamp, and do you think it will solve my problems?

Thanks for reading, and most importantly :rockon:
Click to expand...

Congrats on the new table! It sounds like you found a very affordable avenue to get a quality used 1200. The price seems very fair, especially with the flight case.

As far as your sibilance and surface noise issue. I am afraid to say that a phono stage is not going to solve these issues. Think about it. A phono stage is a gain stage for a signal coming off the cartridge, nothing else. There is a bit of equilizaion being done to account for the compression needed to cut a recording in a chunk of vinyl. However, the end result is the phono stage is going to provide equal gain. How can it possibly contribute to sibilance or surface noise of vinyl? It cannot. I would confidently wager dollars to donuts this is not the case, and pigs do not whimisically gamble with their donuts. Surface noise is going to be due to contaminants on the record, or damage to the vinyl by grinding contaminants into it with a stylus. Sibilance is going to be due to mistracking of the cartridge, either from groove damage by being played by a poorly aligned cartridge or poorly tracking tone arm, or a combination of both. Another possibility is that the record is cut "too hot" and the cartridge/arm cannot track it. But these are physical limitations of the vinyl, cartridge, and tone arm. Once vinyl is damaged, it becomes very difficult to find a turntable play it without some error in playback. So that is the sibilance and record noise you are experiencing. Now it may be that a good cleaning of the vinyl may minimize the noise level, or using a stylus with a smaller profile diamond can get deeper in the groove-past the compromised band of vinyl, but the damage cannot be undone and you will likely hear some remnant of it.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Mister Pig said:
Congrats on the new table! It sounds like you found a very affordable avenue to get a quality used 1200. The price seems very fair, especially with the flight case.

As far as your sibilance and surface noise issue. I am afraid to say that a phono stage is not going to solve these issues. Think about it. A phono stage is a gain stage for a signal coming off the cartridge, nothing else. There is a bit of equilizaion being done to account for the compression needed to cut a recording in a chunk of vinyl. However, the end result is the phono stage is going to provide equal gain. How can it possibly contribute to sibilance or surface noise of vinyl? It cannot. I would confidently wager dollars to donuts this is not the case, and pigs do not whimisically gamble with their donuts. Surface noise is going to be due to contaminants on the record, or damage to the vinyl by grinding contaminants into it with a stylus. Sibilance is going to be due to mistracking of the cartridge, either from groove damage by being played by a poorly aligned cartridge or poorly tracking tone arm, or a combination of both. Another possibility is that the record is cut "too hot" and the cartridge/arm cannot track it. But these are physical limitations of the vinyl, cartridge, and tone arm. Once vinyl is damaged, it becomes very difficult to find a turntable play it without some error in playback. So that is the sibilance and record noise you are experiencing. Now it may be that a good cleaning of the vinyl may minimize the noise level, or using a stylus with a smaller profile diamond can get deeper in the groove-past the compromised band of vinyl, but the damage cannot be undone and you will likely hear some remnant of it.

Regards
Mister Pig
Click to expand...

I understand your point, but I've played quite a few brand new albums with the SL-1200 only to be greeted with a little more surface noise than I was expecting. The issue has been isolated to a few areas at this point. The problem could lie with the M44E cartridge itself and its very loud output voltage. As soon as I swap it with another cart (obviously not the almost identical M447) It could fix the issue immediately. Another possibility could be the conial N447 stylus (honestly doubt this one) not tracking the grooves accurately. Last but not least we have the phono stage in my Onkyo TX-DS494. I've experimented with different phono stages in the past and each phono stage has a different effect on the sound of the music you hear. Some phono stages sound dull while others have a warmer sound (think high end Marantz or other vintage receiver). With that being said I'd like to reference @malden when he mentioned that with a quality stylus the M44E should have no sibilance issues whatsoever. The cartridge is most certainly aligned properly, and I spent quite a bit of time making sure it was so. If @malden was correct in his statement (I trust he was) then the issue must lie outside of the brand spanking new vinyl, and alignment of a quality TT like the SL-1200. At first I certainly wasn't a fan of the M44E, but since then its grown on me. If you're correct about the phono stage not being the issue, it seems quite apparent that it's time for me to retire the M44E for good.
 
AceTechHD said:
I understand your point, but I've played quite a few brand new albums with the SL-1200 only to be greeted with a little more surface noise than I was expecting. The issue has been isolated to a few areas at this point. The problem could lie with the M44E cartridge itself and its very loud output voltage. As soon as I swap it with another cart (obviously not the almost identical M447) It could fix the issue immediately. Another possibility could be the conial N447 stylus (honestly doubt this one) not tracking the grooves accurately. Last but not least we have the phono stage in my Onkyo TX-DS494. I've experimented with different phono stages in the past and each phono stage has a different effect on the sound of the music you hear. Some phono stages sound dull while others have a warmer sound (think high end Marantz or other vintage receiver). With that being said I'd like to reference @malden when he mentioned that with a quality stylus the M44E should have no sibilance issues whatsoever. The cartridge is most certainly aligned properly, and I spent quite a bit of time making sure it was so. If @malden was correct in his statement (I trust he was) then the issue must lie outside of the brand spanking new vinyl, and alignment of a quality TT like the SL-1200. At first I certainly wasn't a fan of the M44E, but since then its grown on me. If you're correct about the phono stage not being the issue, it seems quite apparent that it's time for me to retire the M44E for good.
Click to expand...

What stylus are you using in the M44 cartridge?

EDIT: I just saw the photo you posted. I see it is a current "Made In Mexico" N44-7 which could very well be the problem.
 
AceTechHD said:
Genuine Shure N447 stylus. Can be seen in a picture above.
https://www.amazon.com/Shure-Stylus...F8&qid=1509513499&sr=1-1&keywords=n447+stylus
Click to expand...

Just saw that. There's nothing wrong with the cartridge, it's the stylus that could be your problem. The N44-7 is a DJ stylus, I would only use it for background music.

Original N44E styli can be found on ebay and they are worth looking for. An excellent alternative to the original is this one...

https://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1012
 
malden said:
Just saw that. There's nothing wrong with the cartridge, it's the stylus that could be your problem. The N44-7 is a DJ stylus, I would only use it for background music.

Original N44E styli can be found on ebay and they are worth looking for. An excellent alternative to the original is this one...

https://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1012
Click to expand...

Yes sir, i'm well aware of that stylus.. It just so happened that I came across the genuine Shure N447. While it sounds much better than the previous stylus I used, there still lies the issue of surface noise and some minor sibilance. Has it been common knowledge that the current Shure styli are duds?
 
They're not duds, they are designed for high output and heavy bass. Do you have another cartridge you can try in the 1200 ?
 
malden said:
They're not duds, they are designed for high output and heavy bass. Do you have another cartridge you can try in the 1200 ?
Click to expand...

At this moment in time I own 3 cartridges. Shure M44E, Shure M447, and Audio Technica VS220E (AT-12 clone).

EDIT: I'll add the OEM stylus for the AT cart broke. The cartridge did function though.
 
The Shure M44-7 and M44E share the same cartridge bodies, they differ in the stylus shape and compliance. The M44E (with N44E stylus) can track up to 4 grams, the M44-7 (with N44-7 stylus ) will track up to 3 grams.

I imagine the Audio Technica will provide a completely different sound than either of the Shure cartridges, so I would give that a try.
 
malden said:
The Shure M44-7 and M44E share the same cartridge bodies, they differ in the stylus shape and compliance. The M44E (with N44E stylus) can track up to 4 grams, the M44-7 (with N44-7 stylus ) will track up to 3 grams.

I imagine the Audio Technica will provide a completely different sound than either of the Shure cartridges, so I would give that a try.
Click to expand...

At this point I'm probably getting the Nagaoka MP-110. At the very least that should eliminate all sibilance (maybe..) and offer a substantial sound upgrade. I'll get the Jico N44E at a later date. I will give you props though, the M44E is certainty a damn good cartridge. If it wasn't for the sibilance and surface noise I'd have no issues with it.
 
The high output of the N44-7 would elevate surface noise but the sibilance issue could be due to tracking force being set too low. Try it at 3 grams and see if that cures it.
 
AceTechHD said:
At this point I'm probably getting the Nagaoka MP-110. At the very least that should eliminate all sibilance (maybe..) and offer a substantial sound upgrade. I'll get the Jico N44E at a later date. I will give you props though, the M44E is certainty a damn good cartridge. If it wasn't for the sibilance and surface noise I'd have no issues with it.
Click to expand...

THANK YOU!

It's about time you stopped messing around with the Shure and got yourself a decent new cartridge.

The Nagaoka MP-110 is fantastic value, deals with surface noise extremely well and has real depth to the sound. I've had one on my Sansui XR-Q7 for about 30 hours now and it continues to get better and better.

I also was wondering why you got bogged down with limiting your search to a technics 1200 table when there are other options however I see it worked out nicely for you which is great :)

Please update us with your impression of the MP-110 when it arrives.
 
Homer4beer said:
THANK YOU!

It's about time you stopped messing around with the Shure and got yourself a decent new cartridge.

The Nagaoka MP-110 is fantastic value, deals with surface noise extremely well and has real depth to the sound. I've had one on my Sansui XR-Q7 for about 30 hours now and it continues to get better and better.

I also was wondering why you got bogged down with limiting your search to a technics 1200 table when there are other options however I see it worked out nicely for you which is great :)

Please update us with your impression of the MP-110 when it arrives.
Click to expand...

My main reason for getting the SL-1200 is I wanted a very speed stable direct drive table that would give me little to no issues.

You’re correct in saying there are always other options, but quite frankly I’m extremely happy with my Technics SL-1200. I don’t even need to mention the reputation the table has gained throughout the years. I think a lot of people in the HIFI community downplay the SL-1200. This is the first time I’ve been 100% content with a turntable (obviously minus the Shure cartridges). I doubt I could have done too much better without spending another couple hundred dollars more on a less quality product (or buying another belt drive table :no:).

Thanks for your input on the Nagaoka MP-110. After getting the N447 stylus for the Shure cartridge I began to actually like the way it sounds (minus the afromentioned issues). Plus I thought I could save a little money for new albums and possibly a dust cover for the table. Ultimately you’re right I’m just going to stop messing around with the M44E for the time being. They’re extremely fussy carts.
 
malden said:
I don't care what cartridge you use, but I ain't gonna listen to no BS...:D
Click to expand...

The reason behind this is to cure the sibilance issue. I wasn’t trying to upload the best music, just music that will clearly display the issue. I’ll upload a few better tracks later.

EDIT: I've prepared a 45 second sample of my M44E tracking at 3.0g. This should be self explanatory but we are troubleshooting an issue, not having a dance party. Chances are most of the people reading this have a much better setup than I do, in which you enjoy your music on. With that out of the way, here is the 45 second sample:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4yETdJ-P_rFa1duNzZ5VE9jelE

:rockon:
 
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AceTechHD said:
At this point I'm probably getting the Nagaoka MP-110. At the very least that should eliminate all sibilance (maybe..) and offer a substantial sound upgrade.
Click to expand...
Good move. Definitely look at upgrading the cart. Those Shures are definitely a weak point. (I know from owning one that the M44-7 conical is a very poor tracker--it simply is too fat to fit the grooves without destroying them. That sibilance is indicative of future groove damage!)

The 1200 deserves a lot better. The Nagaoka is a good start; the further you go up their line, the better it gets. I believe the stylus assemblies are interchangeable, so if you started with the MP-110, you likely could hop up to the 200 replacement stylus (or higher) in the future.
 
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