Slightly Skewed Cantilever on NEW 2M Bronze Stylus (and more)

[atomvinter]

i know there are a few threads pertaining to similar situations, of which i have read many, but this particular replacement stylus is brand new whereas most ive seen mentioned in these threads were purchased used. ive aligned the cart relative to the cantilever as opposed to the cart body and everything sounds right. i contacted LP Tunes with this same image asking if a cantilever with this amount of skew is "within tolerance" or if this unit is eligible for replacement. they want me to send it back and wont comment on the photo, which i suppose i understand from a business perspective. so firstly, i wanted to get your opinions as to whether or not i should just leave it aligned to the cantilever and run it like this, or if it would be worth sending back for them to check out.

now, i have a second query: when i changed the stylus, i mounted the cart onto this yamamoto ebony wood headshell with AT6108 leads. this is a few grams heavier than the stock technics. one thing that i thought i initially noticed was that output volume seemed a bit lower than normal, which i immediately attributed to some sort of issue with the stylus. now though, after reading how unlikely it is for a stylus on its own to contribute to a lower output amplitude when mounted onto the same cart as before, and after spinning a few slabs that im very familiar with in terms of how hot they were cut, i am reassessing the situation. after much research, i hypothesize that i may have lowered my overall noise floor by adding to the tonearm's effective mass (the counterweight obviously had to be moved further back which as i understand it, also increases this measurement). for those more experienced than i when it comes to the finer details such as this, do you think my hypothesis could likely be correct based on this information? (output amplitude seems lower than before because the noise floor has been lowered due to this change) my system info is in my profile. (PS - im using the KAB GSE rumble filter, so i am not too worried about potentially running a bit outside of the recommended resonant frequency in terms of problems with warps or footfall).

my neuroticism thanks you for your time.

 

[ripblade]

First of all, the cantilever doesn't look that bad to me. It may even correct itself when antiskate is applied. More critical is channel balance, but if it sounds good, it is good.

On the 2nd matter, output varies with magnet strength. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with effective mass. The noise floor seems lower because the overall output is lower. I don't see this as an issue.

 

[atomvinter]

First of all, the cantilever doesn't look that bad to me. It may even correct itself when antiskate is applied. More critical is channel balance, but if it sounds good, it is good.

On the 2nd matter, output varies with magnet strength. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with effective mass. The noise floor seems lower because the overall output is lower. I don't see this as an issue.

thanks for the reply! channels seem balanced as they should to my ear, though i dont know that i have the means to quantitatively measure this at the moment (assuming a test LP is the most reliable method).

to the second point - that is what is interesting to me, the magnet has not changed. that is, this is simply a replacement stylus, i have not replaced the cartridge itself. the only other variable that has changed since installing the new stylus is the headshell and associated adjustments. any further thoughts on this? (i suppose the other answer could be im psyching myself out, though i listen to records for hours just about every single night of the week, so i do feel i have a pretty good feel on how things sounded before; kind of like how after awhile one knows how their daily driver vehicle is supposed to feel and otherwise minuscule changes day to day become more readily apparent).

 

[sound hound]

I think I see the skew you are referring to. I am used to looking at a picture from the bottom instead of the front, so it is hard for me to compare it to cantilever problems I have experienced. With a new stylus, one never knows what is going to happen. Conceivably a new stylus might have a different output, than an old one, especially when the spec's of the stylus are different.

 

[ripblade]

The magnet is a part of the needle, so when you changed the needle you also changed the magnet.

The wood shell is better damped than a metal one and so may seem to be quieter than a metal one. An analogy would be a wood horn vs a metal one, the metal one will seem louder owing to the properties of the metal. Only way to know for certain is to record frequency response graphs of the two and compare them.

 

[atomvinter]

The magnet is a part of the needle, so when you changed the needle you also changed the magnet.

The wood shell is better damped than a metal one and so may seem to be quieter than a metal one. An analogy would be a wood horn vs a metal one, the metal one will seem louder owing to the properties of the metal. Only way to know for certain is to record frequency response graphs of the two and compare them.

of course it is, i absolutely misspoke earlier, forgive my seemingly ignorant statement! also makes sense that you could chalk it up to better damping properties of wood, that seems likely here

I think I see the skew you are referring to. I am used to looking at a picture from the bottom instead of the front, so it is hard for me to compare it to cantilever problems I have experienced. With a new stylus, one never knows what is going to happen. Conceivably a new stylus might have a different output, than an old one, especially when the spec's of the stylus are different.

it certainly doesnt look as bad from this angle (and may not be so bad overall) but for good measure, ive attached a few attempts at better documenting the situation. i wasnt able to get a clear photo from the underside, but i think this angle makes it easier to assess the cantilever properly. if you have time, please take a look and let me know your thoughts.

 

[cafe latte]

of course it is, i absolutely misspoke earlier, forgive my seemingly ignorant statement! also makes sense that you could chalk it up to better damping properties of wood, that seems likely here


it certainly doesnt look as bad from this angle (and may not be so bad overall) but for good measure, ive attached a few attempts at better documenting the situation. i wasnt able to get a clear photo from the underside, but i think this angle makes it easier to assess the cantilever properly. if you have time, please take a look and let me know your thoughts.

Your pictures are not taken square from the front, this is obvious.
If you have good channel balance there is no issue.
Chris

 

[atomvinter]

Your pictures are not taken square from the front, this is obvious.
If you have good channel balance there is no issue.
Chris

fair enough. im not sure that i could get any closer to square from the front just by eyeballing and using my barehands though. i think its still pretty clearly skewed to the cartridge's left (which appears as going to the right in the photo of course) if you look at the pictures full size however.

keep in mind too that ive already aligned this using the cantilever as opposed to the cart body and as such have had to compensate for the skew which has left the cart very slightly canted to one side on the headshell, which you may be picking up on as well. at least in the first photo if you look at the front of the headshell for reference, it looks to me that i got that one pretty close to square from the front.

that said, it seems like no one so far sees it as that big of a deal. from reading various threads i have found a few examples of people saying a slightly off cantilever on a new stylus is relatively common.

 

[Fishead]

Hi @atomvinter, and worry not.....I can certainly appreciate your "neuroticism" as well as your concerns about that stylus, although as others have said, it does not appear to be too far off but definitely off some, thanks to the additional pics you included. It's hard, really hard, to determine things like this with pictures taken from the front of the cartridge and it would be far better if you were to remove the entire headshell, lay it on its back and take some photos from above. We will likely be able to see more that way. Even if the cantilever is skewed a bit to one side, by aligning it to the grid on your protractor you will likely be able to compensate for that small amount and be just fine. And, as @ripblade said above, once the appropriate antiskate force is applied, it might just bring it right into the sweet spot so this is not a particular concern in my mind. It just seems like manufacturers should be able to get this right, a properly placed cantilever, doesn't it? If they can't get this part right, just imagine what happens when they place a tiny stylus on the end of it??? That's what is really of concern to me and without being able to dial in both zenith and azimuth properly, and there are some tonearms where this is the case, we are really at the mercy of what the manufacturer does in both of these regards. But, it's a good thing that we have our ears to tell us when things are right, provided you have a tonearm and headshell that allow for the necessary adjustments.

I don't really know what to tell you about the difference in output you have noticed. You and others have suggested that the change of headshell might be responsible, but I have not seen that to be the case. Doesn't mean that it can't be and I'd love to hear more about it......why not just put the cartridge back on the old headshell, provided you still have it, and see if your volume goes up? Otherwise, man, it's the same cartridge with a different stylus which should, the way I'm thinking of it, not cause a change in output voltage unless the new stylus is manufactured differently than the original one is. I mean, a 2M Bronze is a 2M Bronze, no??? I'd ask LP Tunes what they make of that......everything is the same except for the new stylus and the output is lower??? That just does not make sense. I would definitely put the old headshell on there first just to rule out that it made a difference, but if it does not, I think LP Tunes needs to consider that they got an out of spec stylus from Ortofon.

Hope that helps a bit and let us know how things turn out, amigo.....

 

[Mr Boochie]

it certainly doesnt look as bad from this angle (and may not be so bad overall) but for good measure, ive attached a few attempts at better documenting the situation. i wasnt able to get a clear photo from the underside, but i think this angle makes it easier to assess the cantilever properly. if you have time, please take a look and let me know your thoughts.

You are good to go. Remember, the cantilever is on a movable suspension. So, there is movement to accommodate the tonearm weight, groove geometry, and its varying dimensions. Your photo does not necessarily show the exact alignment of the needle during record play.

 

[gary7]

Try not to be as OCD as I was. I had bought a table That had a Shure V-15 IV and the stylus had a slight lean to it. Obsessed trying to straighten it, finally broke it. Sigh.

 

[Tozco]

I see what you're talking about. It looks like the cantilever is rotated in its suspension so that the stylus doesn't point straight down when viewed from the front. It seems like most of the replies here think your concern is that the cantilever isn't parallel to the cartridge centerline. Which is it?

 

[atomvinter]

I see what you're talking about. It looks like the cantilever is rotated in its suspension so that the stylus doesn't point straight down when viewed from the front. It seems like most of the replies here think your concern is that the cantilever isn't parallel to the cartridge centerline. Which is it?

my concern is that it isnt parallel to the center. i really dont think its rotated in the suspension at all, though i do get why you think it might look that way because i did too at first but ive inspected it magnified and it seems like the mark on the end of the cantilever is what gives the illusion that it might be.

 

[Fishead]

so that the stylus doesn't point straight down

I thought that as well from the very first picture posted, however after looking at all the pictures, I concluded that it was pointing straight downward, at least not off to any great extent. Now, here's what my new Hana ML (the first one I received before they sent me a replacement) looked like if you want to see what a stylus with a real problem looks like:


.....and yes, I know the picture is not from straight-on, but even so one can see the downward direction of the stylus itself is just plain off as in cocked towards the spindle.

PS - BTW, this cartridge was indeed replaced by MusicDirect after consultation with Musical Surroundings, the US distributor for Hana. I was pretty stunned that the stylus was not better positioned from the factory and that they would let this out of their doors.....that said, the Hana ML is the best-sounding cartridge I've had on my Nottingham and not by a small margin......

 

[Mr Boochie]

.....and yes, I know the picture is not from straight-on, but even so one can see the downward direction of the stylus itself is just plain off as in cocked towards the spindle.

Tiny changes in camera angle can make a big difference in perspective. A grid can help judge the photo's alignment.

 

[Fishead]

Nice, Booch!!!

 

[Mr Boochie]

Nice, Booch!!!

Thank you!

I needed a tripod to get the correct angle.

 

[atomvinter]

well i guess im leaning towards just telling LPTunes* "nevermind". im almost wondering at this point if the reason they are able to offer a lower price than anyone else is because they receive B-stock or something along those lines. still "within tolerance" but not in the top percentile. thoughts? this is my first time ordering anything from them. i should have learned my lesson by now about 'too good to be true' pricing...

 

[Mr Boochie]

well i guess im leaning towards just telling LPGear "nevermind". im almost wondering at this point if the reason they are able to offer a lower price than anyone else is because they receive B-stock or something along those lines. still "within tolerance" but not in the top percentile. thoughts? this is my first time ordering anything from them. i should have learned my lesson by now about 'too good to be true' pricing...

I would not go for B-grade cartridges. Just get a cheaper A-grade one.

My 2¢ worth.

 

[atomvinter]

I would not go for B-grade cartridges. Just get a cheaper A-grade one.

My 2¢ worth.

right, they dont advertise them as b grade or anything like that, the prices are just well under normal retail. i was hypothesizing that this could be the reason for my replacement stylus' slightly off angle as opposed to the one that came on the cart which was pretty much dead center.