Blue Shadow
Waiting for Vintage Gear from this century
AK at it's core
Because it is a hobby and we can.
Enjoy the music while engaging in that activity.
Solen caps in NHT SuperZero make trumpet sound harsh and ear-hurting
- Thread starter Kreshna
- Start date
AK at it's core
Because it is a hobby and we can.
Enjoy the music while engaging in that activity.
Thanks, ra.ra
Guess what I’m trying to say, is that I’m of the thought that I want to hear the speaker the way it was designed and intended. In my book, if you need to “fix” a speaker, then why not find something more suited to begin with?
For a little backstory, I have recapped a pair of Realistic Optimus 1000s (similar to the Mach series, they’re a 15” 3-way from the late ‘80s). They still sounded great, but after reading a bit here about how NPEs are “crap” and should be replaced due to age (regardless of sound), I dove in. First set I used were also NPEs, because I didn’t want to brighten them as poly and film caps tend to due. However, I found that even the Parts Express NPEs were very bright compared to the Mundorf E-Caps that I eventually settled on. The Optimus 1000s were originally a very warm speaker, and I didn’t want to change that character.
So you can see what I’m saying here, that changing caps (even to ones of the same type, but a different manufacturer) can drastically alter the sound of a speaker. Some guys like that, and that’s their mission. I’m not one of those guys, I like to hear the speaker the way it was originally intended. To each his own, I guess.
Thanks,
Joe
P.S.- You mentioned that caps can degrade or improve the sound. That, in and of itself, is another issue. Some guys’ idea of improvement may be vastly different from another’s. Most here seem to like bright speakers, I like mine warm and lush. So that’s another issue with the “these caps are the best” theories, how to define “improvement”...
Blue Shadow
Waiting for Vintage Gear from this century
With the defined life of an NPE vs. the lifetime quality of the film caps, folks just throw them in speakers without adjusting for the different electrical characteristics as the only ones on the label are the capacitance and voltage so it has to be a drop in. Repairing an old speaker with tired NPE using newer NPE isn't redesigning but renewing and you should get back closer to the manufacturers product offering when new. But who knows, replacing the surrounds are probably changing the sound a bit, too.
Can’t disagree on either count, really.
Regarding the refoam, that’s a necessary evil. I agree that they likely don’t match the original (either in roll width, foam properties, etc.). Heck, there was even a recent debate regarding front vs. rear attachment that was interesting. All could change things, I suppose. Difference there vs. the cap debate is that there is no alternative though. If they’re gone, you HAVE to change them to run the speaker.
Regarding the caps, I agree there also. However, as I added above, even two NPE caps of different brands can sound drastically different. I first used PE NPEs, and they were very bright. Sounded okay, but the sibilance drove me nuts. It was BAD. Then I changed to the Mundorf E-caps, and love them much more. The warmth was back, and the sibilance all but gone. So if I DO have to recap the Mach 3s, I’ll use those if they’re rated for enough voltage. They’re only rated for 50VAC though, and I recall reading that the Mach’s use a higher rated cap...
Thanks,
Joe
StimpyWan
Addicted Member
Thanks, ra.ra
Guess what I’m trying to say, is that I’m of the thought that I want to hear the speaker the way it was designed and intended. In my book, if you need to “fix” a speaker, then why not find something more suited to begin with?
For a little backstory, I have recapped a pair of Realistic Optimus 1000s (similar to the Mach series, they’re a 15” 3-way from the late ‘80s). They still sounded great, but after reading a bit here about how NPEs are “crap” and should be replaced due to age (regardless of sound), I dove in. First set I used were also NPEs, because I didn’t want to brighten them as poly and film caps tend to due. However, I found that even the Parts Express NPEs were very bright compared to the Mundorf E-Caps that I eventually settled on. The Optimus 1000s were originally a very warm speaker, and I didn’t want to change that character.
So you can see what I’m saying here, that changing caps (even to ones of the same type, but a different manufacturer) can drastically alter the sound of a speaker. Some guys like that, and that’s their mission. I’m not one of those guys, I like to hear the speaker the way it was originally intended. To each his own, I guess.
Thanks,
Joe
P.S.- You mentioned that caps can degrade or improve the sound. That, in and of itself, is another issue. Some guys’ idea of improvement may be vastly different from another’s. Most here seem to like bright speakers, I like mine warm and lush. So that’s another issue with the “these caps are the best” theories, how to define “improvement”...
Poly caps certainly sound better than NPEs. Usually, clearer, cleaner, with greater resolution. As a result, that can make speakers sound brighter, after the recap. But, to me, you're finally actually hearing what the speakers are capable of.
As a recommendation, if increased brightness concerns you, especially if you want to try poly caps, I'd try ClarityCaps. They definitely sound warmer in tonal balance than other brands that I've tried. Another reason that Claritys sound a bit warmer, is the fact that their ESR doesn't measure as low as other poly caps. Their ESR is pretty close to a NPE. So, you won't get a balance shift due to less resistance. Clarity makes several series of poly caps, at increasing price points. Start with a PX, if desired, or work up through the SA, CSA, or CMR range, if cost is less of an issue?
I have hearing loss in my left ear from band, where the 1st chair would deafen me. I had to threaten ol' Chip D with bodily harm (wherever you are, I hope you have an ingrown toenail, perhaps bedbugs or some other plague, you scruffy nerfherder) before he quit blatting in my ear.
Finally realized why I prefer saxophone to trumpet, listening-wise, lol.
Finally realized why I prefer saxophone to trumpet, listening-wise, lol.
OH, and Ken Kantor, designer of the Super Zero, stated on this very website he didn't think caps would need replacing in these, even after all these years, if memory serves Still, I am curious. Love these tiny little gems.
adnick
Addicted Member
Been working on my Infinity RSMs and there several Infinity diagrams that have a spread of caps the on tweeter side of Crossover, they range from 6uf to 8.5uf
In each case there’s an inductor .1-.3mH + to -
I’ve tried a 6uf and a 8.2uf on my tweeters and the 8 produces a more notable response, but they are EMIT tweeters.
Hope ya get them working to your satisfaction....
In each case there’s an inductor .1-.3mH + to -
I’ve tried a 6uf and a 8.2uf on my tweeters and the 8 produces a more notable response, but they are EMIT tweeters.
Hope ya get them working to your satisfaction....
Thanks, Stimpy.
I don’t know, I think this topic is far too subjective for me. Things like “certainly sound better”, and “these are warmer” are all opinions. What sounds “better” is always going to be a matter of opinion, and I’m sure mine is a minority lol. I like my speakers more dark, with lots of midrange but more subdued highs (as many live performances sound, really).
Like I said, I have no desire to change the character of my speakers. Freshen them to factory spec? Absolutely. But again, we can’t even say that’s a given, when I’ve personally tried two different NPEs with notably different sound qualities.
Have you measured the ESR of these different poly’s, or? If it was strictly a volume issue, I can compensate with the L-pads. But I don’t personally feel it’s just a matter of resistance/volume being the only change, as the tonal characteristics of those I’ve tried were different as well.
To me, I’m not the type who likes to rip things apart 8-10 times to try a bunch of different caps. Not only is it costly, but things like cabinet threads only take so many removal/installation cycles. If experimenting is the hobby for some, that’s great, and I’m surely not knocking it. Just more stressful for me than fun...
I guess like I said, I buy speakers based on what I know of the manufacturer and model. I have no desire to change them, only to have them be as intended.
You’ve been great to me in the past, so this is in no way doubting your knowledge or any form of disrespect. Just my opinion on things.
Thanks,
Joe
I've re-capped 4 pair of speakers, with varying results. The first was a pair of Norman model 8's, using Sonicaps and Mills resistors. The improvement to these (according to my ears) was obvious. The sound is more detailed yet very smooth.
The next two, DCM CX-17 and NHT SuperOnes (original), only the caps were replaced using Dayton's (can't remember what tolerance) and I wasn't impressed with either. Like the OP, they bothered my ears. The DCM's were given away, and I can't see spending more money on the NHT's to recap them again. They too will probably be given away, or sold at some point.
The last is a pair of Totem Sttaf's. The only reason I recapped them is because they bothered my tinnitus (as do many other speakers). Recapped them with Sonicaps and couldn't tell any difference, sound wise, but they still bothered my tinnitus. (Gonna put the originals back in at some point.)
I do have a pair of KEF 104/2's that I plan on recapping (with Falcon caps) at some point. However, some of the Falcon caps are so out of tolerance that I need to find replacements first.
The next two, DCM CX-17 and NHT SuperOnes (original), only the caps were replaced using Dayton's (can't remember what tolerance) and I wasn't impressed with either. Like the OP, they bothered my ears. The DCM's were given away, and I can't see spending more money on the NHT's to recap them again. They too will probably be given away, or sold at some point.
The last is a pair of Totem Sttaf's. The only reason I recapped them is because they bothered my tinnitus (as do many other speakers). Recapped them with Sonicaps and couldn't tell any difference, sound wise, but they still bothered my tinnitus. (Gonna put the originals back in at some point.)
I do have a pair of KEF 104/2's that I plan on recapping (with Falcon caps) at some point. However, some of the Falcon caps are so out of tolerance that I need to find replacements first.
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StimpyWan
Addicted Member
I used Dayton 5% caps on my AR-1MS mini-speakers. The Dayton's were balanced and spacious. But, they had a nasty upper mid sibilance. Very peaky and spitty, with a "Ssss" character. Fatiguing to listen to for long. I haven't recapped them yet, but I did add a film bypass cap, that helped smooth out the spitty sound, to where I can live with them as surrounds at least.
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Interesting and my findings too. I replaced 3.3 mfd Aerovox caps with ClarityCaps of the same value for the Heil and found the highs were muted compared to the Aerovox, which were a bit too bright. But, I did add 1 ohm to the Heil when changing to the ClarityCaps, so this is not exactly "apples to apples." BTW, the ClarityCap values were all right on the money, as if they were hand matched.
I then added a 0.1 mfd styrene cap to the 3.3 mfd as a by-pass (3.4 mfd total), and to let the Heil go a hair lower, reducing a slight dip in the crossover region, but didn't note any real difference. Eventually, the highs "came around"... or I just got used to them.
StimpyWan
Addicted Member
I don't know if you've ever read Tony Gee's capacitor tests, but those tests exactly described what you and I both heard. Tony says the Claritys are "warm and closed in". I would have liked those qualities, other than the fact that my center speaker sounded so muted after, it made vocals almost unintelligible. Like I said earlier, more burn in time helped, and the film cap really opened them up. I'll probably stick to Mundorf caps in the future.
I'd never read that so I took a look. He says "In a nut-shell: microphony is the keyword - the mechanical resonance, a key feature of audio capacitors. This is a physical deformation of the capacitor plates which occurs as a result of the audio signal passing through the component..."
Interestingly, the late Cyril Bateman suggested the same thing, though his research on capacitors was strictly scientific and measurement-based.
His research is a heavy read, published over several months in an electronics magazine, but it's available here if anyone is interested:
https://linearaudio.nl/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles
Well I have to totally disagree with his assessment of Erse Pulse X caps. I have them on a second pair of ESS AMT3 Heils, in the tweeter mid circuit, and the are totally natural sounding, with a great soundstage. Zero micro phonics. Typical Great Heil sound at it's best.
I take those type of reports with a grain of salt.
I bet in a double blind test, he would have little clue which caps where which.
I saw such a test awhile back, and so called golden ears could not tell the difference between a electrolytic cap, and a poly cap, let alone brands.....
IMHO if a cap is made to sound a certain way, it's not doing it job anyway...
But hey, if you think you really hear a difference between properly functioning in spec caps..be my guest!!
I used to have people sweating it out on some of my AMT3's threads-types of caps, etc. Just remember how well those speakers sounded new with $2.00, in spec (hopefully!) caps....
I take those type of reports with a grain of salt.
I bet in a double blind test, he would have little clue which caps where which.
I saw such a test awhile back, and so called golden ears could not tell the difference between a electrolytic cap, and a poly cap, let alone brands.....
IMHO if a cap is made to sound a certain way, it's not doing it job anyway...
But hey, if you think you really hear a difference between properly functioning in spec caps..be my guest!!
I used to have people sweating it out on some of my AMT3's threads-types of caps, etc. Just remember how well those speakers sounded new with $2.00, in spec (hopefully!) caps....
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I don't think I can hear a difference, I know I can. If you can't it, you can't, but don't try to tell others they can't.
darkblue94
The Devil made me do it.
Speakers don't sound "well," they can sound anywhere from terrible to great but not "well."
Ok
Sounding well good, great, awesome, terrible, whatever.
My descriptors aren’t the point.
I’m not telling you that you don’t hear a difference I’m sure you do.
I'm should have stated I question why your hearing a difference.
There’s all sorts of reasons for that.
Especially off fresh of a recap.
If your old capacitors were out of spec your speakers are going to sound bright with new in spewc capacitors.
When I saw that test, where those folks couldn't tell a difference, I wanted to find out for myself.
I don’t see any harm in that whatsoever.
I had no preconceived notions at the time.
I’ll post the test here when I find it I think you’d be surprised.
And my other point I disagree with his assessment on that particular capacitor,
It’s so far off it doesn’t make any sense.
I have had 3 different crossover rebuilds and I made the point of having ones with different capacitors in each speaker
Myself, and a number of other audio file buddies couldn’t tell the difference between the two.
As long as they held the same spec and tolerance, and the levels of all the drivers remained the same. And obviously, the cap is not being over driven.
It wasn't a professionally conducted test by any means, just so that's clear.
I questioned the same thing- what I was hearing and wanted to find out for myself after seeing a number a capacitor test, I was a bit confused, the reasoning for my own test.
As mentioned, there’s no harm in going with what you feel sounds good I don’t have a problem with that I’m just stating my opinion.
I'm not saying anyone is dumb, stupid, tin eared here-no reason to take offense.
I don't see a problem questioning why you are hearing a difference.
Sounding well good, great, awesome, terrible, whatever.
My descriptors aren’t the point.
I’m not telling you that you don’t hear a difference I’m sure you do.
I'm should have stated I question why your hearing a difference.
There’s all sorts of reasons for that.
Especially off fresh of a recap.
If your old capacitors were out of spec your speakers are going to sound bright with new in spewc capacitors.
When I saw that test, where those folks couldn't tell a difference, I wanted to find out for myself.
I don’t see any harm in that whatsoever.
I had no preconceived notions at the time.
I’ll post the test here when I find it I think you’d be surprised.
And my other point I disagree with his assessment on that particular capacitor,
It’s so far off it doesn’t make any sense.
I have had 3 different crossover rebuilds and I made the point of having ones with different capacitors in each speaker
Myself, and a number of other audio file buddies couldn’t tell the difference between the two.
As long as they held the same spec and tolerance, and the levels of all the drivers remained the same. And obviously, the cap is not being over driven.
It wasn't a professionally conducted test by any means, just so that's clear.
I questioned the same thing- what I was hearing and wanted to find out for myself after seeing a number a capacitor test, I was a bit confused, the reasoning for my own test.
As mentioned, there’s no harm in going with what you feel sounds good I don’t have a problem with that I’m just stating my opinion.
I'm not saying anyone is dumb, stupid, tin eared here-no reason to take offense.
I don't see a problem questioning why you are hearing a difference.
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