Some Empire Turntable History

[bolero]

I get continuity between headshell, cart, and both grounds. No continuity between headshell & arm.

I'll see if I have any plastic headshell screws around, and try a barrier between the LR ground wires, it's a pretty tight space for the 4 wires behind the cart

 

[bolero]

I can't see how that is happening: I have a plastic spacer between headshell & cart, those 2 black plastic sliders on top are plastic, and I separated the LR ground wires. So none of that appears to be in contact.

Someone mentioned a ground strap on the cart, I'll check that out

 

[empirelvr]

I can't see how that is happening: I have a plastic spacer between headshell & cart, those 2 black plastic sliders on top are plastic, and I separated the LR ground wires. So none of that appears to be in contact.

Someone mentioned a ground strap on the cart, I'll check that out

The easiest way to check that without removing the cart is to pop the cart out of the clip and leave it dangling. have the ground connections connected to the cart, RCA's plugged into the preamp/receiver, and try it. if it's a ground loop from the cart/headshell connection, you should hear no hum since the cart out of the clip is totally isolated from the headshell. Try that first and report back.

 

[bolero]

Good idea!

I've never removed or installed the clip from the cart, is there any trick to it? It just pops on & off?

Thx!

 

[bolero]

Haven't got around to doing that yet, but I did find my 698's brass 45rpm adaptor that vanished into thin air months ago.

It somehow landed in the side pocket of a tool bag sitting on the floor, when it flew off the mat.

I was looking for something else yesterday & was amazed when I reached in & found it.

Arrivederci, cheap yellow plastic 45rpm adaptor

 

[MyTubesRTied]

For posterity, I wanted to share photos of how to lubricate a Papst motor from an Empire turntable. (The basic lubrication approach should be similar for other turntable models of the era that used a Papst -- such as Rek-O-Kut and Fairchild). My Empire unit is a model 208. The Papst motor in the unit was manufactured in 1961. I don't believe the motor was ever serviced, so I decided to do so for peace of mind.

First, unplug the turntable, remove the turntable platter (insert a micrfiber cloth in the platter well to keep oil from seeping out) and headshell. Tie down the tonearm to the arm rest with a twist tie to lock it in place.

Then put a towel on top of the turntable and turn it over. Rest it on an elevated surface, such as coffee cans.

With the table upside down, unscrew the three screws that are on the bottom of the Papst motor. This will reveal the ball bearing and allow you to remove the oil, flip the delrin thrust pad over and add new oil.

Below: You will want to remove the round cover noted with the red arrow.

View attachment 908020

Below: the cover removed showing the original yellowed oil in place since 1961 and the delrin thrust pad. While the oil may look ok, when I wiped it off with a cloth it was clearly dirty after having been in service for 56 years.

View attachment 907745

Below: the cover removed showing the ball bearing and original oil. Note that a little bit of the oil may splash out when removing the lid. Be careful not to lose the ball bearing.

View attachment 907746

Below: inspect the ball bearing for flat spots or damage. In my case it was fine, so I reused it. I measured it for posterity: 4mm. You could put a new ball bearing in if you like.

View attachment 907757

Below: Use isopropyl alcohol to clean the bearing well, thrust pad and ball bearing. After cleaning the old, dirty yellow oil away, inspect the delrin thrust pad for a divot worn in from the ball bearing. If you have a substantial divot, flip it over and reseat it to expose a fresh delrin surface to the ball bearing.

View attachment 907747

Below: removing the divoted thrust pad. You may need to use a safety pin or tiny screwdriver to unseat it.

View attachment 907748

Below: flip it over and reseat it. There is now a fresh, flat surface that will contact the ball bearing.

View attachment 907749

Below: press it down and make sure it's seated flat. If it's not flat, find a tool to make it flush. Pushing on it with the rounded side of spoon worked for me. Be careful not to mar or indent the delrin surface.

View attachment 907750

Below: After cleaning, add new oil. And screw the bottom plate back on the motor. I use 3-IN-ONE brand motor oil SAE 20. (Label is blue and it says: engineered for 1/4 HP motors or larger). I added about 3 or 4 drops -- approximating the amount of oil that was there when I opened it up. Before plugging the unit back in, spin the motor by hand to make sure it is spinning freely.

View attachment 907751

Below: Enjoy your Empire for many more years!

View attachment 908023

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for doing a public service for those of us trying to figure out how to service these tables. I'm wondering if there's any help for the motor on my Empire 498.

For posterity, I wanted to share photos of how to lubricate a Papst motor from an Empire turntable. (The basic lubrication approach should be similar for other turntable models of the era that used a Papst -- such as Rek-O-Kut and Fairchild). My Empire unit is a model 208. The Papst motor in the unit was manufactured in 1961. I don't believe the motor was ever serviced, so I decided to do so for peace of mind.

First, unplug the turntable, remove the turntable platter (insert a micrfiber cloth in the platter well to keep oil from seeping out) and headshell. Tie down the tonearm to the arm rest with a twist tie to lock it in place.

Then put a towel on top of the turntable and turn it over. Rest it on an elevated surface, such as coffee cans.

With the table upside down, unscrew the three screws that are on the bottom of the Papst motor. This will reveal the ball bearing and allow you to remove the oil, flip the delrin thrust pad over and add new oil.

Below: You will want to remove the round cover noted with the red arrow.

View attachment 908020

Below: the cover removed showing the original yellowed oil in place since 1961 and the delrin thrust pad. While the oil may look ok, when I wiped it off with a cloth it was clearly dirty after having been in service for 56 years.

View attachment 907745

Below: the cover removed showing the ball bearing and original oil. Note that a little bit of the oil may splash out when removing the lid. Be careful not to lose the ball bearing.

View attachment 907746

Below: inspect the ball bearing for flat spots or damage. In my case it was fine, so I reused it. I measured it for posterity: 4mm. You could put a new ball bearing in if you like.

View attachment 907757

Below: Use isopropyl alcohol to clean the bearing well, thrust pad and ball bearing. After cleaning the old, dirty yellow oil away, inspect the delrin thrust pad for a divot worn in from the ball bearing. If you have a substantial divot, flip it over and reseat it to expose a fresh delrin surface to the ball bearing.

View attachment 907747

Below: removing the divoted thrust pad. You may need to use a safety pin or tiny screwdriver to unseat it.

View attachment 907748

Below: flip it over and reseat it. There is now a fresh, flat surface that will contact the ball bearing.

View attachment 907749

Below: press it down and make sure it's seated flat. If it's not flat, find a tool to make it flush. Pushing on it with the rounded side of spoon worked for me. Be careful not to mar or indent the delrin surface.

View attachment 907750

Below: After cleaning, add new oil. And screw the bottom plate back on the motor. I use 3-IN-ONE brand motor oil SAE 20. (Label is blue and it says: engineered for 1/4 HP motors or larger). I added about 3 or 4 drops -- approximating the amount of oil that was there when I opened it up. Before plugging the unit back in, spin the motor by hand to make sure it is spinning freely.

View attachment 907751

Below: Enjoy your Empire for many more years!

View attachment 908023

Hello and thank you for doing a public service by posting these pics. Wondering if you or anyone else might be able to help. The motor on my 498 started making noise. I unscrewed the bottom cover and the plastic (I believe it's plastic) washer that surrounds the spindle is cracked. Any idea where I can get another one of these? I attached some pics so you can see what I'm talking about. Thank you all for your time.

 

[noted]

I asked this in the other thread and don't remember seeing a response - if the strobe disc on a 598 is silver, does that mean the finish of the table was silver? My 598 has been covered in gold leaf, so the strobe disc is the only visible, finished portion.

Thanks for the very intensive and interesting history lesson!

Thanks for the knowledgable history. I'm looking for a "turn over" 45's adapter for a model 598iii. Does anyone have a photo of one?

 

[bolero]

I'll have a look at mine & get a pic, it might be the popup style though

edit- just checked, mine is the spring loaded popup style sorry

It's too bad all these "brand specific threads" are so buried here on AK, nobody sees them.

They should put the link in the main TT section instead

 

[empirelvr]

I'll have a look at mine & get a pic, it might be the popup style though

edit- just checked, mine is the spring loaded popup style sorry

It's too bad all these "brand specific threads" are so buried here on AK, nobody sees them.

They should put the link in the main TT section instead

If the OP wants they can extend their search for a pop-up one as its drilled out for it anyway and will work. (I did it to my own 598III.)

 

[bolero]

well that's a good option to know about!

 

[samrobertson]

Can anyone advise with servicing the 98 tonearm bearings? My arm skips towards the end of each side and feels like some looseness in the bearings is the culprit, but I haven’t been able to loosen the bearing cap at all and am afraid of causing damage.

 

[empirelvr]

Can anyone advise with servicing the 98 tonearm bearings? My arm skips towards the end of each side and feels like some looseness in the bearings is the culprit, but I haven’t been able to loosen the bearing cap at all and am afraid of causing damage.

It sounds counter-intuitive for bearing looseness to cause skipping. Usually it's the opposite that causes that. If the bottom pillar spins freely and slowly spins down if you give it a fast, hard nudge then it's something else.

You're smart to ask, the horizontal bearings in the 98 arm aren't in a race, so if you were to loosen the cap without precaution you'd have all the ball bearings spilling out everywhere.

Is the tracking force set right and at the right VTF? Since there is no anti-skate on a 98, the arm could be just obeying the laws of physics if you try tracking too light.

Also, are the wires coming out of the arm pillar good and limp with no binding anywhere or a kink that might impede smooth horizontal motion?

 

[samrobertson]

It sounds counter-intuitive for bearing looseness to cause skipping. Usually it's the opposite that causes that. If the bottom pillar spins freely and slowly spins down if you give it a fast, hard nudge then it's something else.

You're smart to ask, the horizontal bearings in the 98 arm aren't in a race, so if you were to loosen the cap without precaution you'd have all the ball bearings spilling out everywhere.

Is the tracking force set right and at the right VTF? Since there is no anti-skate on a 98, the arm could be just obeying the laws of physics if you try tracking too light.

Also, are the wires coming out of the arm pillar good and limp with no binding anywhere or a kink that might impede smooth horizontal motion?

Thanks for the tips. I should have mentioned this - but the arm has some very slight play and wiggles back and forward a touch at the base so that made me suspect the bearings. I’ve seen technics 1200s with worse, but there is definitely some play.

Wiring all looks good and clear but table is now in a different location. Will set back up and observe.

It wasn’t skipping on every record - but a majority, and always in the exact same place on the last track on each side.

 

[empirelvr]

Thanks for the tips. I should have mentioned this - but the arm has some very slight play and wiggles back and forward a touch at the base so that made me suspect the bearings. I’ve seen technics 1200s with worse, but there is definitely some play.

Wiring all looks good and clear but table is now in a different location. Will set back up and observe.

It wasn’t skipping on every record - but a majority, and always in the exact same place on the last track on each side.

Does your 98 have the Dynalift? It wasn't originally part of the arm but was available as an add on by Empire later.

 

[samrobertson]

Does your 98 have the Dynalift? It wasn't originally part of the arm but was available as an add on by Empire later.

No dyna-lift. I believe this is the older 98 arm since it has removable headshell. Table was an eBay buy so god knows what happened in transit but it was packed expertly and arrived with no signs of abuse. It does sound absolutely fantastic, other than the last 2 min of each side!

 

[kdooley]

I just bought Frank Zappa's 208 from cicada_shell as can been seen in this thread.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/frank-zappas-empire-208.1089200/

I won't be able to pick it up for a month or so because it's at my sister's place in North Florida and my schedule is full until then. I figured that I would go ahead and start gathering up all the new parts I will need for the restoration and I have a couple of questions.

1. Which tonearm is this? I'm assuming it's a 98 with a fixed headshell.



2. How do you attach a cartridge to this? I'm assuming it needs a cartridge sled. There is one on ebay for a 980 or 990 at this link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/332259246372
Is this compatible or do I have to go another route?

3. Does anybody know where I can get a counterweight? The are counterweights for 980's on ebay. Are they interchangeable? My neighbor is a retired machinist and I have the specs for a 98 counterweight so I thought that we might be able to conger up one. I would rather try to find a replacement first.

Thanks for the help. I've restored AR's and Thorens before but this is my first Empire.

 

[empirelvr]

I just bought Frank Zappa's 208 from cicada_shell as can been seen in this thread.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/frank-zappas-empire-208.1089200/

I won't be able to pick it up for a month or so because it's at my sister's place in North Florida and my schedule is full until then. I figured that I would go ahead and start gathering up all the new parts I will need for the restoration and I have a couple of questions.

1. Which tonearm is this? I'm assuming it's a 98 with a fixed headshell.

View attachment 3543362

2. How do you attach a cartridge to this? I'm assuming it needs a cartridge sled. There is one on ebay for a 980 or 990 at this link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/332259246372
Is this compatible or do I have to go another route?

3. Does anybody know where I can get a counterweight? The are counterweights for 980's on ebay. Are they interchangeable? My neighbor is a retired machinist and I have the specs for a 98 counterweight so I thought that we might be able to conger up one. I would rather try to find a replacement first.

Thanks for the help. I've restored AR's and Thorens before but this is my first Empire.

That is a 980 tonearm which makes this a 398 turntable. The fingerlift is also broken off, unfortunately.

So, any parts for a 980 arm, like the sled you linked to, will work.

 

[kdooley]

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure which tonearm it was. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the fingerlift.

That is a 980 tonearm which makes this a 398 turntable. The fingerlift is also broken off, unfortunately.

So, any parts for a 980 arm, like the sled you linked to, will work.

 

[samrobertson]

@empirelvr thanks for the help suggesting I check around for other issues causing the skip!

Slightly rearranged the ground wire underneath, wondering if that was creating a tug on the arm, but no dice with the next album skipping in the same spot. I decided to watch the arm try to move through the passage again to see if I noticed anything - and wait a minute! The buyer had installed brand new feet on the plinth and one appeared to be screwed in a tiny bit too deeply, hovering a touch too high and leaving the table supported by 3/4 feet only. Since adjusting the height of that foot, we're playing through perfectly and this thing sounds just spectacular. A keeper table!

Listening to an instrumental album by a wonderful acoustic fingerpicker Stefan Grossman at the moment and in-the-room realness is simply astounding!

 

[bolero]

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure which tonearm it was. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the fingerlift.

I hope you can restore the arm with some donor/replacement parts. Frank had his grubby hands all over that tonearm, it needs to be preserved