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Speaker cable gauge considerations

Akustic said:
Perspective ..
Particle physics, and wave theory .. Albert messed everybody up when he offered proofs that it was both ..
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Sorry, perhaps I'm not really following you, but in terms of electronics at audio frequencies and when using standard components we're generally not concerned with underlying physics. It's important if you're designing and manufacturing transistors, but unnecessary to choose or use a transistor in a circuit. Electronics theory covers that, and electronics theory is both sufficient, and complete, to describe everything that happens in an audio chain up to driving the speakers.

It's rather similar to computing, where we don't need to understand the underlying physics of silicon chips in order to write computer programs. For that, computer science is both sufficient and complete.
 
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There's a common Subjectivist fallacy that says "Science can't explain everything, therefore it can't explain this."

This viewpoint is the result of "I can't understand everything, so I'm not going to bother understanding this."

And unfortunately evolves to "I can't understand this, why bother understanding anything?"
 
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DaveVoorhis said:
Sorry, perhaps I'm not really following you, but in terms of electronics at audio frequencies and when using standard components we're generally not concerned with underlying physics. It's important if you're designing and manufacturing transistors, but unnecessary to choose or use a transistor in a circuit. Electronics theory covers that, and electronics theory is both sufficient, and complete, to describe everything that happens in an audio chain up to driving the speakers.

It's rather similar to computing, where we don't need to understand the underlying physics of silicon chips in order to write computer programs. For that, computer science is both sufficient and complete.
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Agreed ..
Back to wire and how it sounds .. the whys are open and unnecessary questions ..

(And for clarification .. the reference was to Albert Einstein, Quantum Physics and the dual nature of matter and energy .. Wave Theory, and Particle Physics essentially.. it's a duality, both at the same time .. either visualization is as correct or incorrect as the other .. )
 
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rothwellaudio said:
There have been amps from some quite well-known manufacturers which were prone to blowing up if the wrong cable was used and they would specify that the customer must use their proprietary brand of cable. I even heard of Quad amps going into shut-down with some cables. Some amps just can't cope with much capacitance at their outputs. What happens when there's not quite enough capacitance for catastrophic failure, but more than there would be with different type of cable?
Btw, I don't know the answer to that.
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I've seen that exact situation happen.

I had a Marantz 250 power amp, that I was attempting to use with my custom Vifa 2-way speakers (C17/D25AG35), with Kimber Kable as the speaker wires.

Though the amp had been checked out to work perfectly beforehand- on this setup, it sounded positively "strangled" No dynamics, very hard and gritty sound.

I went through all sorts of permutations trying to figure out what was wrong. changing preamp, looking at the power from the wall, and such. On a hunch, I swapped out to some Audioquest F14 flat-wire cable- and voila- back to full power and dynamics, clean and clear.

Apparently, the Marantz was just stable enough to run with the low-reactance AQ cable, but not to run with the higher-reactance Kimber Kable.

I sold off all my Kimber Kable shortly thereafter... it may be just the perfect thing with some amp and speaker combos- but I don't want to have to worry about things that can potentially cause issues like that..

Regards,
Gordon.
 
GordonW said:
I've seen that exact situation happen.

I had a Marantz 250 power amp, that I was attempting to use with my custom Vifa 2-way speakers (C17/D25AG35), with Kimber Kable as the speaker wires.

Though the amp had been checked out to work perfectly beforehand- on this setup, it sounded positively "strangled" No dynamics, very hard and gritty sound.

I went through all sorts of permutations trying to figure out what was wrong. changing preamp, looking at the power from the wall, and such. On a hunch, I swapped out to some Audioquest F14 flat-wire cable- and voila- back to full power and dynamics, clean and clear.

Apparently, the Marantz was just stable enough to run with the low-reactance AQ cable, but not to run with the higher-reactance Kimber Kable.

I sold off all my Kimber Kable shortly thereafter... it may be just the perfect thing with some amp and speaker combos- but I don't want to have to worry about things that can potentially cause issues like that..

Regards,
Gordon.
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Amps and loads .. the amp has to drive the downstream load which is generating EMF and trying to drive the amp back ..
Most amps are pretty adaptable but some are more particular than others ..
And then there's the whole other issue of a particularly good pairing, and synergy ..
Complicated business .. try them in your system and listen .
Kimber is great stuff that I keep around, and it improves the clarity of most systems but I usually have multiple amps and more than one system .. obviously my tube amp didn't like them either.
YMMV and some of the Marantz's had a reputation for intolerance ..
 
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I've wondered more than once if the reduced resistance of larger wire gauges and shorter speaker cable runs improves the amps ability to overcome the forces that the speaker cone is generating and pushing back at the amp ..
It's plausible, but I don't remember ever reading anything about that particular topic ..
 
botrytis said:
This is one of the contentious topics in audio, which includes interconnects, Analog better than digital, etc. To me use what you want. I am currently using a single core wire (rectangular 12 gauge too). The reason, it sounded better to me. It was not a subtle difference either.

Use what you want, there is no wrong answer. Respect others, and the world will be better.
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Yea and 2x the respect each other ....
It went off the tracks when some of us figured out that Julian Hirsch was wrong.
All amplifiers don't sound the same ...
And their sound differs with different loads and connectors.
 
mschool said:
I've decided what speakers I plan to buy. They're 6 OHM speakers and my run lengths from my amp will be 2 meters for each speaker (6.5 feet each). My research tells me that 24-AWG wire is optimal, given the short length of the wire and the 6-OHM rating of the speaker. Is there something else I need take into consideration?
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Get on eBay and look up Auvio wire, it’s low buck OFC, 12awg. Google the specs and reviews on the 12awg. I’ve been using it for years now. Best bang for your buck and it looks great in person. It claims to be 12awg.... it’s more like 10awg. You will need pin connectors if you hook it up to anything vintage. The quality of the insulation is fantastic. I’ve ran nicre audio quest type 4 and Supra cables and a few others, nothing compares to the Auvio low buck wire for the $$.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Gauge-P...494486?hash=item3b39112196:g:SjsAAOSw1Btdfm6X

It’s no longer made, it was radio shacks top end wire.

The 15awg spoils are shielded and it’s more like 12awg.

You have to see it in person to understand, in pix it looks like the old monster 12awg... it’s far superior to the monster cable.

I can tell you this, I’ve recommended it many times, every time someone gets a spool they are shocked at the quality and thickness. Finding banana plugs to solder on was a pain as 12awg plugs will not fit, Nerve audio has some nice bananas that will go up to 10awg that fit the bill.. and it’s a snug fit.

If any of you try it let me know :)
 
jobrewer1983 said:
Get on eBay and look up Auvio wire, it’s low buck OFC, 12awg. Google the specs and reviews on the 12awg. I’ve been using it for years now. Best bang for your buck and it looks great in person....
..... If any of you try it let me know :)
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Thanks for the recommend ..
A better sound for a reasonable amount of money ..that's what a lot of us are after ...

Here's an inexpensive ($1.50 or so a foot) twisted cable that I tried recently that is a cut above any standard wire that I've tried ...
I listened on 3 different amps and 3 sets of speakers.
Smooth.. it didn't emphasize any frequency, just added clarity .. but it wasn't as good as my Kimber tho, so I sent it back.
Nice thing about these Amazon cables is that they're returnable if they don't make an improvement .. (KK BS-K is it's name)

https://www.amazon.com/KK-Cable-8ba...M2RFH4K3GHZ&psc=1&refRID=S136RT6ZFM2RFH4K3GHZ
 
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Akustic said:
That looks like high strand count wire .. which is usually very flexible .. not stiff.
Is it high strand count ??
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its super dense and super high strand, the insulation is a little stiff but the actual copper is really flexible.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/

you may like the write up on it ^^

If you just google reviews you will see that anyone who has it loves it. I have a few spools left that are in my "special stock" lol

I have more expensive cables, but really nothing of the quality you get with Auvio. It is almost a 10 awg wire.

The Monster and the Amazon Special stuff is nothing like this. the insulation is even high gloss and just looks superior to other 12awg.

The hard part is finding it, there is one on ebay now, it shows up every now and than, I try to buy it when I see it.
 
I have seen many av show reports where many use thick cable and a brand like inakustisk sometime rates there cable in 3 categories

Bass,Treble,Dynamics, they claim a thicker cable sounds better then the thinner version of the same cable

https://www.lautsprechershop.de/kabel/inakustik_kabelexzellenz_en.htm 12-10 awg should give you more of everything compared to 24 or 18 awg

6.0 mm² seems to be the sweetspot since going from 4.0 mm² to 6.0 mm² seems like a bigger jump in sound quality then 2.5 mm² to 4.0 mm²
 
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Ok, I came across this forum while researching some 2nd hand Melton speakers I might buy, and by chance see one of my favorite topics, speaker cables.

I am an electrical engineer with way too many years up my sleeve, also started in the ham shack with my Dad when I was 5, he built all his own gear from scratch, including oscilloscopes transceivers, antennas etc, usualy with salvaged parts from TVs and radiograms - because I grew up in New Zealand in the 70s and no one had any money and thats how you did things.

So cut a long story short, there is one very important thing with speaker cables, and with all reasonable lengths it is not the gauge - I see comments about lamp flex - stranded lamp flex makes awesome speaker cables, some of the best there is. 1.5 sqmm is officially rated for 10 amps continuous based on heating losses and the temp ability of the insulation, also other factors.

But, let us say you are pumping peak 40 volts, at 10 amps that is 400W. That is a lot of noise, most people are not listening to anywhere near that much power.

Now I get to the point, copper oxide is a fantastic rectifier, before semiconductors were around, copper oxide rectifiers were a big thing.

If you use untinned copper wire and it is tarnished, the impact to the signal reaching the speaker will possibly dwarf eavery other imaginable aspect down to the use of maybe individual cat 5 cores, and even then provided the speaker wire is less than about 5% of the total loop impedance thru you 8 ohm or 4 ohm speaker, you wont hear it.

SImple version, there is more, but that is what you need to know.

Quite a few of the pull back, stick in the hole and bite connectors are ok, because they pierce the tarnish layer and form a sort of cold weld over time (look up how wire wrap works and why NASA still used it for years on space mission electronics).

But the screw down ones, even with the hole in the post, I am not convinced about a lot of them.

Anyway, tin your ends before you worry about just about anything else.

I am sure the new guy coming in here with radical ideas on one of the all time hottest topics in audio land (as I understand it) is going to get heavily flamed, but so be it, if it helps one person I will be happy.

Personally, I close my eyes and compare speakers/systems and if I cant hear the difference I don't pay for it, but years of heavy machinery make my ears now more cloth than golden.

Happy listening.
 
impish said:
Ok, I came across this forum while researching some 2nd hand Melton speakers I might buy, and by chance see one of my favorite topics, speaker cables.

I am an electrical engineer with way too many years up my sleeve, also started in the ham shack with my Dad when I was 5, he built all his own gear from scratch, including oscilloscopes transceivers, antennas etc, usualy with salvaged parts from TVs and radiograms - because I grew up in New Zealand in the 70s and no one had any money and thats how you did things.

So cut a long story short, there is one very important thing with speaker cables, and with all reasonable lengths it is not the gauge - I see comments about lamp flex - stranded lamp flex makes awesome speaker cables, some of the best there is. 1.5 sqmm is officially rated for 10 amps continuous based on heating losses and the temp ability of the insulation, also other factors.

But, let us say you are pumping peak 40 volts, at 10 amps that is 400W. That is a lot of noise, most people are not listening to anywhere near that much power.

Now I get to the point, copper oxide is a fantastic rectifier, before semiconductors were around, copper oxide rectifiers were a big thing.

If you use untinned copper wire and it is tarnished, the impact to the signal reaching the speaker will possibly dwarf eavery other imaginable aspect down to the use of maybe individual cat 5 cores, and even then provided the speaker wire is less than about 5% of the total loop impedance thru you 8 ohm or 4 ohm speaker, you wont hear it.

SImple version, there is more, but that is what you need to know.

Quite a few of the pull back, stick in the hole and bite connectors are ok, because they pierce the tarnish layer and form a sort of cold weld over time (look up how wire wrap works and why NASA still used it for years on space mission electronics).

But the screw down ones, even with the hole in the post, I am not convinced about a lot of them.

Anyway, tin your ends before you worry about just about anything else.

I am sure the new guy coming in here with radical ideas on one of the all time hottest topics in audio land (as I understand it) is going to get heavily flamed, but so be it, if it helps one person I will be happy.

Personally, I close my eyes and compare speakers/systems and if I cant hear the difference I don't pay for it, but years of heavy machinery make my ears now more cloth than golden.

Happy listening.
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Which certainly makes the point that the connection is just as important as the wire ..
As for the sonics of connections .. well that's a whole nother can of worms ..
And personally I refuse to use banana plugs for anything but temporary connections ... there's a reason for the complete lack of them in pro audio ..
 
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