Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[cwall99]

Cwall, if that's the goal why not a completely standard ABX? That way, you can change the clip of music every time if you want, and there is no rating scale confusing things, and interpreting the data is straightforward.

The goal is to eliminate contaminating what you're hearing with any sort of cue about what you're listening to while still providing each setup an equal opportunity to present its own sound.

I see two things going on: first, we have a faction of AKers who don't believe the claims of expensive cable manufacturers and their customers. Conversely, we have another faction who do.

Second, we have some AKers who would like to put those claims to the test, to see whether cables do make an audible difference.

Here's the thing: there's an overwhelming body of research out there that says if you know whether you're in the experimental or control group, you will, consciously or otherwise, modify your behavior to align with your pre-existing prejudices.

The pro-ABXers are aware of this facet of human behavior and want to set up a test that removes its impact on the results.

I don't know about you, but I see a strong correlation among the commentators that looks something like this:

• Expensive cable skeptics = pro-ABX
• Expensive cable supporters = anti-ABXers

Now I don't know about you, but if I were uber-confident in my cables' ability to make a system sound better, I'd be as eager as the pro-ABX crowd to set something up to show that the cables make a difference. Yet, the overall gist of their comments seem to indicate that they're very reluctant for some reason to put their position on the line the way the pro-ABX crowd is willing to.

That's what I'm seeing anyhow.

 

[Mister Pig]

The goal is to eliminate contaminating what you're hearing with any sort of cue about what you're listening to while still providing each setup an equal opportunity to present its own sound.

I see two things going on: first, we have a faction of AKers who don't believe the claims of expensive cable manufacturers and their customers. Conversely, we have another faction who do.

Second, we have some AKers who would like to put those claims to the test, to see whether cables do make an audible difference.

Here's the thing: there's an overwhelming body of research out there that says if you know whether you're in the experimental or control group, you will, consciously or otherwise, modify your behavior to align with your pre-existing prejudices.

The pro-ABXers are aware of this facet of human behavior and want to set up a test that removes its impact on the results.

I don't know about you, but I see a strong correlation among the commentators that looks something like this:

• Expensive cable skeptics = pro-ABX
• Expensive cable supporters = anti-ABXers

Now I don't know about you, but if I were uber-confident in my cables' ability to make a system sound better, I'd be as eager as the pro-ABX crowd to set something up to show that the cables make a difference. Yet, the overall gist of their comments seem to indicate that they're very reluctant for some reason to put their position on the line the way the pro-ABX crowd is willing to.

That's what I'm seeing anyhow.

Yet, the overall gist of their comments seem to indicate that they're very reluctant for some reason to put their position on the line the way the pro-ABX crowd is willing to.


But from what I see, the PRO ABX crowd doesn't do the test either. They want someone else to do the test and prove to them its possible. Such as cable manufacturers or people who use "boutique" cables. The onus for them is always someone else. I would like to see them lead by example too, if their position is so righteous.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

It could also be that the anti-ABX cable crowd doesn't feel they have anything to prove to anybody. The only thing an ABX test would accomplish would be to help somebody else come to a conclusion about my choices, not me. And I don't care what you think.

I look at some of the above complexity and just can't help but wonder what this hobby looks like to an outsider looking in.

 

[whoaru99]

Yet, the overall gist of their comments seem to indicate that they're very reluctant for some reason to put their position on the line the way the pro-ABX crowd is willing to.


But from what I see, the PRO ABX crowd doesn't do the test either. They want someone else to do the test and prove to them its possible. Such as cable manufacturers or people who use "boutique" cables. The onus for them is always someone else. I would like to see them lead by example too, if their position is so righteous.

Regards
Mister Pig

Well, if you assert that your race car runs a 10 second quarter mile isn't the burden of proof on you that it does, not me that it doesn't?

 

[whoaru99]

It could also be that the anti-ABX cable crowd doesn't feel they have anything to prove to anybody. The only thing an ABX test would accomplish would be to help somebody else come to a conclusion about my choices, not me. And I don't care what you think.

Part of the trouble is just what we say. ABX isn't about preference, it's a tool to ascertain (basically) if one is guessing or not.

Nobody's preference is at question in the great cable debate. I couldn't care less if you like your bass at +10 and your treble at -10. The controversy is more fundamental than that.

 

[JohnVF]

Well, if you assert that your race car runs a 10 second quarter mile isn't the burden of proof on you that it does, not me that it doesn't?

It depends on if he bragged about the cars performance. If you just walk up to him and say "It's impossible that your race car runs a 10 second mile", its not up to him to prove that it does. You made the accusation.

 

[Mister Pig]

Well, if you assert that your race car runs a 10 second quarter mile isn't the burden of proof on you that it does, not me that it doesn't?

Only if I require that you recognize my car as a ten second car.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

Part of the trouble is just what we say. ABX isn't about preference, it's a tool to ascertain (basically) if one is guessing or not.

Nobody's preference is at question in the great cable debate. I couldn't care less if you like your bass at +10 and your treble at -10. The controversy is more fundamental than that.

What I was saying is that many of those who run expensive cables or who at least think there is some merit to them, feel they owe nothing to the group demanding ABX tests. They have their own burden of proof which they have satisfied, and they're off listening to something. The whole ABX thing is for a different crowd who wants or needs objective proof for all claims. Its a completely different mindset that not everybody adheres to nor wants to. Be it about preference or just a difference, its completely irrelevant. It's about solving the needs of an unrelated party.

 

[gvalent]

It depends on if he bragged about the cars performance. If you just walk up to him and say "It's impossible that your race car runs a 10 second mile", its not up to him to prove that it does. You made the accusation.

How about when a cable manufacturer makes such a claim?

 

[whoaru99]

Only if I require that you recognize my car as a ten second car.

Regards
Mister Pig

To me that begs the question why would one would say it was a ten second car if they didn't intend for others to acknowledge it as such?

 

[Mister Pig]

How about when a cable manufacturer makes such a claim?

Nobody forces you to buy it, hence the free market system. You make the choice whether its a worth wile expenditure or not. You are free to use ABX testing, in house demo, written reviews, or recommendations of other users as your criteria. Or however else you feel comfortable evaluating how you spend your money.

But it is your money, your purchase, your satisfaction. Or my money, my purchase, my satisfaction. In the end the buyer has to be satisfied, no one else. If they chose to voice their opinion based on their experience, well that is certainly their right. Which happens to be why TOL exists.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

How about when a cable manufacturer makes such a claim?

Depends.

Here's a bit on the fallacy of Appeal to ignorance/shifting the burden of proof.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html


What none of this addresses is the weight of the matter, or rather, the lack of it. We're not talking about things of great importance here. And many people will never see any reason to have to prove their stereo to somebody else. Because of the fact that its a stereo.

 

[Mister Pig]

To me that begs the question why would one would say it was a ten second car if they didn't intend for others to acknowledge it as such?

Perhaps the car is capable of running ten seconds theoretically. Perhaps on paper the horsepower, weight ratio, and gearing will allow for a ten second run. Someone can say its a ten second car based on engineering.

But in the real world, it depends on track conditions, driver skill, tire selection, and weather conditions. That ten second capable car may not run those times on a given day.

So is it or is it not a ten second car then?

What if you give a ten second car to a less skilled driver? He runs in the 11's or 12's. Is it a ten second car then..since there is no slip time to prove it?

What if its a marginal ten second car and one driver can get there and another can't? Is it a ten second car?

What if a car runs in the 11's consistently. But a driver hits a hole shot and has great conditions. Gets the run of his life...can we call it a ten second car with a single pink slip? How many pink slips do you need to call it a ten second car?

In short how much proof do we need? Which translates back to the wire debate, in that some people will ignore the "engineering" explanations of wire companies and no level of proof will satisfy them short of divine revelation. The other side does not care about the salvation of the non believer...so they don't try that hard.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

Another thing with ABX tests is, you really are going to have to dig into the data to realize the truth of the matter. The topline isn't necessarily the whole story. Say only 5% of the people "guessed" correctly. But they did it consistently every time. And 95% got it all wrong, or were just spread out randomly. Statistically what would you do with the 5%? Some would dismiss it as a statistical outlier (I've seen this in some of the audiophile "proof" challenges, when you read into the fine print). And then when you do consider them, the slights against "Golden ears" will begin. But I actually believe that some people have ears better trained to realize differences than others, so that's a red herring with me.

Not that what I've said above in my previous posts on this is all logically sound...I've certainly made my share of "appeal to ridicule" charges.

 

[VinylRob]

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And this is what I'm talking about. Would a DBX test that a bunch of people unrelated to you and your situation have an effect on the decision you made, with your own two ears?

Your example gets to another assumption often thrown at the fancy cable crowd...that they WANT to spend this money. Why would anybody want to spend more than they need to? I certainly don't know of any social cache you get from running expensive cables. If anything it just opens you up to snotty ridicule.

Agree entirely john. I need no group to acknowledge anything to me. I just need other people (as we all do) to have fun with, and if we can see a similar vision or believe in some of the same stuff, or share in a good experience together, than I just see that as a bonus.

The only thought about a public cable "test" was just this, for those who have no experience with swapping out cables, for whatever reason, for those who are so stuck in their heads about the logic, the money, the social bull sh*t of fancy cables... My hope was not to convince anybody differently, just to listen as a group, tally up the consensus, and see what a bunch of ears and minds agree to, if anything. But more importantly (and yes in this way I may be carrying a little bit of a torch, so if someone wants to sue me for it, have at it) I just thought if people got the chance, like the numbers that the Minnesota group saw, more people walked away with the experience, and maybe some understanding that cables actually do change things... that's all, that's it. That would satisfy me for some twisted reason. Would it change the world? NO, would it change me and my world, maybe just a bit. I (we) already have the experience, many just have ideas about it.

Happy Listening!

 

[VinylRob]

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Maybe if you had left your older "stuff" in longer, the pieces may have acclimated themselves to each other and produced a better result. If that's possible.

EDIT: As in break-in time, etc. Unless the changes you heard with your current parts were immediate when originally purchased.

I think it pretty well was all broken in stuff because I was running some of it at SMAC room AK Fest and before.

Keep in mind, if someone in this thread doesn't believe that cables sound different, I find it highly unlikely that they would believe "break-in", or "system settling" wouldn't be just more hockus pocus.


Happy Listening!

 

[JohnVF]

I'm not against those who do ABX (or who want to in theory) having their own fun with it. I'm only against roping those of us who don't care into the consequences. As in, I don't want to be demanded of having somebody elses "fun", in order to be allowed to have my own, in peace. And that is what much of this is about. The cable crowd would be quite happy to just be left alone instead of what so often happens...a self-righteous demand that they acquit themselves of all wrongdoing from some unrelated party. The cable crowd here at least is just wanting to talk amongst themselves, and so often is not permitted to do so by an uninvolved party who just happens to overhear the conversation and barges in. This thread is not like that given its subject matter, but many others are.

 

[Mister Pig]

I think it pretty well was all broken in stuff because I was running some of it at SMAC room AK Fest and before.

Keep in mind, if someone in this thread doesn't believe that cables sound different, I find it highly unlikely that they would believe "break-in", or "system settling" wouldn't be just more hockus pocus.


Happy Listening!

Just another snarky post by those who disagree with how you enjoy the hobby. Amazing how others get bent out of shape when you don't conform to their way of thinking.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Mister Pig]

I'm not against those who do ABX (or who want to in theory) having their own fun with it. I'm only against roping those of us who don't care into the consequences. As in, I don't want to be demanded of having somebody elses "fun", in order to be allowed to have my own, in peace. And that is what much of this is about. The cable crowd would be quite happy to just be left alone instead of what so often happens...a self-righteous demand that they acquit themselves of all wrongdoing from some unrelated party. The cable crowd here at least is just wanting to talk amongst themselves, and so often is not permitted to do so by an uninvolved party who just happens to overhear the conversation and barges in. This thread is not like that given its subject matter, but many others are.

Well said.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

I had just this experience the other day over at two other forums where folks were discussing the merits of the Vinyl Flat. I of course chimed in with my first hand information that was mostly positive. The discussion that followed ranged from how it couldn't work to how it wasn't any better than the "glass plates in the sun" trick. No one, not one of those opinions were posted by someone who actually had used the Vinyl Flat! Someone knew a guy who had the $2,000 flattener but that was it. I even mentioned that all these opinions were being offered by those with NO experience with the unit but the vitriol continued. Amazing. What I learned is that asking for as well as advice on these forums is not without hazard.

Amen! What he said! I know, that is the part of this that simply drives be nuts. I don't care if everyone sees (hears) it like I do, I really could not care less! (Oh crap, I'm starting to sound like JohnVF! ) But sometimes, if we have nothing but an opinion... maybe we should just save it. And in that way be more constructive toward the end. The net is wrought with worthless opinion. So there is mine!

Happy Listening!