Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[VinylRob]

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Perhaps the car is capable of running ten seconds theoretically. Perhaps on paper the horsepower, weight ratio, and gearing will allow for a ten second run. Someone can say its a ten second car based on engineering.

But in the real world, it depends on track conditions, driver skill, tire selection, and weather conditions. That ten second capable car may not run those times on a given day.

So is it or is it not a ten second car then?

What if you give a ten second car to a less skilled driver? He runs in the 11's or 12's. Is it a ten second car then..since there is no slip time to prove it?

What if its a marginal ten second car and one driver can get there and another can't? Is it a ten second car?

What if a car runs in the 11's consistently. But a driver hits a hole shot and has great conditions. Gets the run of his life...can we call it a ten second car with a single pink slip? How many pink slips do you need to call it a ten second car?

In short how much proof do we need? Which translates back to the wire debate, in that some people will ignore the "engineering" explanations of wire companies and no level of proof will satisfy them short of divine revelation. The other side does not care about the salvation of the non believer...so they don't try that hard.

Regards
Mister Pig

Mister Pig, for a guy who spends a great deal of time seemingly just hanging around the barn yard, you are one smart pig my friend!!!

Happy Listening!

 

[Brett a]

This is all going very well!

 

[bshorey]

And this is what I'm talking about. Would a DBX test that a bunch of people unrelated to you and your situation have an effect on the decision you made, with your own two ears?

Your example gets to another assumption often thrown at the fancy cable crowd...that they WANT to spend this money. Why would anybody want to spend more than they need to? I certainly don't know of any social cache you get from running expensive cables. If anything it just opens you up to snotty ridicule.

Well, believe it or not, some people do.

Back in my stereo selling days, I once lost a bid because I went in too low. The client showed me the competing bid, mid if stuff at best and 3x what I was charging. He told me my stuff must be crap..

There are some people that wear this stuff like a badge of honor. For the record, I don't detect any of that here.

bs

 

[JohnVF]

Well, believe it or not, some people do.

Back in my stereo selling days, I once lost a bid because I went in too low. The client showed me the competing bid, mid if stuff at best and 3x what I was charging. He told me my stuff must be crap..

There are some people that wear this stuff like a badge of honor. For the record, I don't detect any of that here.

bs

It is true that those people are out there. I have marketed Vodka and one strategy of a competing company was just to charge a lot more and put it in a nice bottle. And they were very successful because of it (Grey Goose). I don't think it should be the go-to assumption, though, that is laid upon users. I know for a lot of people who are in on the "I'm just here to listen" wagon, they're just as fascinated when something cheap sounds great as they are when something expensive sounds like crap. I'm all for inexpensive solutions IF I can't improve things by spending more money. I'm debating right now if I can improve upon an amp that cost me $400. I'm not sure I can within my budget, which is considerably more but not endless.

 

[bshorey]

What I meant was, more precisely, we're all in this for very different reasons. That's not a bad thing, just an observation- and it could be why we all have such heated discussions. I don't enjoy tinkering with things, I'm not really that intrigued by the "why" of any of this, though I kind of thought I was at one time. I'm really not. But I am interested in different gear, and what it sounds like (and sometimes why, but not so much).

The hobby to me is listening to different gear and talking about it. I enjoy talking about the relative merit of this and that (and this to that) but I am not at all objectively focused on it. When I think something is good, that is good enough for me. I get irritated when people tell me that its not good enough. Why not? I'm not telling them to use it. I am the only one who has to listen to it (and my poor girlfriend who sees more gear come and go than she'd care to). The gear comes and goes because, again, I like hearing different gear. I like comparing the results subjectively. But that doesn't seem to be allowed by some, in their "rules for living" or whatever (not referring to you Dumptruck, I get that you're just coming at it from a different perspective).

So, it seems we may have some common goals, looking for what sounds best to us. But different methods, as a great part of the enjoyment for me is learning why things behave as they do.

Understanding that it's not your responsibility or desire to answer the 'why' questions, where does a person like me ask the question? I see the discussions taking place, my intent on joining them isn't to thread crap, it's to learn.

Maybe we need an Engineering Out Loud forum? Where people that theorize about things can have discussions, without being thread crapped on by people who've got hands on experience? (That's intended as humor..)

bs

 

[gvalent]

Nobody forces you to buy it, hence the free market system. You make the choice whether its a worth wile expenditure or not. You are free to use ABX testing, in house demo, written reviews, or recommendations of other users as your criteria. Or however else you feel comfortable evaluating how you spend your money.

But it is your money, your purchase, your satisfaction. Or my money, my purchase, my satisfaction. In the end the buyer has to be satisfied, no one else. If they chose to voice their opinion based on their experience, well that is certainly their right. Which happens to be why TOL exists.

Regards
Mister Pig

You and I most certainly have wide differences in personality and probably world view as well. Not a bad thing mind you.

 

[gvalent]

Depends.

Here's a bit on the fallacy of Appeal to ignorance/shifting the burden of proof.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fall... is based on so called scientific principals.

 

[JohnVF]

I'm an audio-libertarian.

I reserve the right to make my own decisions and to do myself harm if I choose to, financial or otherwise. It's my business and I resent and am offended when others think that my business is theirs especially when it comes to my little hobby here.

 

[JohnVF]

Didn't really get a lot out of this.
But, I am not saying that lack of proof is proof that cables or other items are don't work.
I just want some tangible evidence that item does work before spending any time or money going there.

There's nothing to "get" out of it, its a definition of a logical fallacy, not an opinion.

 

[Hyfi]

This is all going very well!

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. What I got out of the test is that no matter what price or style, there were more people that actually had a preference than those that did not have one. That says that they heard a difference or they would not have had a preference. If all cables sounded the same, every test should have resulted in No Preference at all times.

 

[gvalent]

I have marketed Vodka and one strategy of a competing company was just to charge a lot more and put it in a nice bottle. And they were very successful because of it (Grey Goose)..

I had heard about this before.

I also read about a DBT done with Grey Goose lovers that ended up with them picking Smirnoff over GG be a wide margin.

 

[gvalent]

There's nothing to "get" out of it, its a definition of a logical fallacy, not an opinion.

Then please explain if you will. I just didn't get it.
I read it three times.

 

[JohnVF]

I said "it depends" basically because either side could be presenting a logical fallacy based upon their claim. But if the cable listeners aren't making a claim to you, and you call them on this unmade claim, I think the burden of proof is upon you.

Both sides could be presenting an appeal to ignorance fallacy. If they make an unsupported claim to you in the form of an argument, and say that whatever they're claiming is true because it hasn't been proven false. But I don't see many here saying that their preferences are anything more than that---a preference based upon the available information to them, and judged against their own threshold for making a decision.

http://philosophy.lander.edu/scireas/ignorance.html

But it should be noted that I have not studied formal logic, formally . It's just something I find interesting and would love to look into more. Any good books out there on argumentation theory? Tom Brennan should be here, he seems to have an excellent grasp of the subject.

 

[Mister Pig]

You and I most certainly have wide differences in personality and probably world view as well. Not a bad thing mind you.

I see. Fortunately I make no ass umptions about you. :thumbsdn:

By the way, I like your signature, I find it poignant.

My questions are always answered. My comments always ignored

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

For the life of me I still can't figure out why anybody else feels they have a right to what I choose to entertain myself with. And Gvalents assertion that he and Mr. Pig have different personalities goes with that. Gvalent, why do you feel that my preoccupations affect you at all? I'm serious about that. What possible harm could come to you by others choosing to pursue something that you deem unnecessary or frivolous?

 

[VinylRob]

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Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. What I got out of the test is that no matter what price or style, there were more people that actually had a preference than those that did not have one. That says that they heard a difference or they would not have had a preference. If all cables sounded the same, every test should have resulted in No Preference at all times.

Hmmm, I kinda like that.

 

[usedto]

Just another snarky post by those who disagree with how you enjoy the hobby. Amazing how others get bent out of shape when you don't conform to their way of thinking.

Regards
Mister Pig

Your self proclaimed barnyard manners leave something to be desired, with all due respects. My question was not "snarky", I don't necessarily disagree with the premise that cables can make a difference, and I am not bent out of shape(despite the username). There are just as many threads about component break-in on this forum as there are whether or not cables make a difference, and I was curious as to whether or not it could have affected the session.

You may not think it matters. Others might have a different take. That's all.:thmbsp:

 

[gvalent]

For the life of me I still can't figure out why anybody else feels they have a right to what I choose to entertain myself with. And Gvalents assertion that he and Mr. Pig have different personalities goes with that. Gvalent, why do you feel that my preoccupations affect you at all? I'm serious about that. What possible harm could come to you by others choosing to pursue something that you deem unnecessary or frivolous?

John,
I have never said nor do I believe what other do is unnecassary or frivolous. I never said others systems is any my my business. In threads such as this and where people have differences of opinions things can easily be misinterpreted and cause unwarranted animosities.

I have never said that you or anybody else is not enjoying their systems or is foolish for doing so.

I am here at AK to learn and have some fun. I'm a cable agnostic, I'm trying learn about them. It's actually difficult though.

As far Mr. Pig, my comments were about his view on the burden of proof topic, which are totally the opposite of mine, so much so that I made a statement about our personalities. It was not meant to be offensive or a personal attack, just a statement of fact as I see it. I was rather shocked at his reply actually.

In this case it seems my questions aren't answered and comments are never ignored.

 

[JohnVF]

John,
I have never said nor do I believe what other do is unnecassary or frivolous. I never said others systems is any my my business. In threads such as this and where people have differences of opinions things can easily be misinterpreted and cause unwarranted animosities.

I have never said that you or anybody else is not enjoying their systems or is foolish for doing so.

I am here at AK to learn and have some fun. I'm a cable agnostic, I'm trying learn about them. It's actually difficult though.

As far Mr. Pig, my comments were about his view on the burden of proof topic, which are totally the opposite of mine, so much so that I made a statement about are personalities. It was not meant to be offensive or a personal attack, just a statement of fact as I see it. I was rather shocked at his reply actually.

In this case it seems my questions aren't answered and comments are never ignored.

Fair enough. Lets shake on it and share a beverage over all of our collectively good systems. Curiosity and skepticism are both good traits to have.

 

[whoaru99]

Another thing with ABX tests is, you really are going to have to dig into the data to realize the truth of the matter. The topline isn't necessarily the whole story. Say only 5% of the people "guessed" correctly. But they did it consistently every time. And 95% got it all wrong, or were just spread out randomly. Statistically what would you do with the 5%? Some would dismiss it as a statistical outlier (I've seen this in some of the audiophile "proof" challenges, when you read into the fine print). And then when you do consider them, the slights against "Golden ears" will begin. But I actually believe that some people have ears better trained to realize differences than others, so that's a red herring with me.

Not that what I've said above in my previous posts on this is all logically sound...I've certainly made my share of "appeal to ridicule" charges.

It's like all statistics. You sample, pool all the data, calculate the results and determine how applicable the conclusion is to the whole population based on confidence.

Anyone who feels they above the general population is always encouraged to demonstrate their ability individually.