Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[VinylRob]

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As I said before, forum debates are mostly for entertainment purposes. We chat, we make digs at each other, maybe add some new perspectives, try and compare cables and wire to cars and paintings and for some it's somehow about breasts :scratch2:, and maybe have some fun and challenging discussion. But I doubt any resolution or convincing is going to come out of it unless there is some specific action taken by the reader.

Breast implants was used as an example to first: try and draw everyone's attention, ever so briefly off of this sometimes tedious and anal retentive at other times, nit picking (obviously, even the mention of breast was not enough, there may be little hope for our long term survival) and secondly, to explain that the painting/poster at twelve feet comment, in my opinion, non sensical. A painting, a Rolex, heck, almost any well crafted piece of whatever, and YES, even breasts at twelve feet, lose a great deal of what makes them intrinsically valuable. So the author's point fell flat on me. When you think of breasts, doesn't it make you happy, if only for a moment? And dovetails comments made from a preceding the thread "Why are us "cable believers" made to defend our position so often?"

I work as a liaison between our customer's styling studios, product engineering teams, marketing, and finance groups. These minds could not be more diverse in their scope and intent. We often are confronted with a grid lock of minds as we develop a consumer product. What helps in my experience is to sometimes clear the mind and go back at it from a fresh angle. So, I thought this would be the perfect forum and a good moment to stop, inhale, exhale, and think about boobs for just a moment and then get on with the business at hand. Sometimes it seems, in our better moments that we draw each other out to a more enlightened way of looking at our hobby... and other times it seems we are destined to just stand knee deep in the mire keep whipping and already dead horse, that's all.

Carry on.

 

[dumptruck]

The comment about the painting was a joke, unlike your carefully calculated boob simile.

 

[VinylRob]

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carry on.

 

[terra1]

Breast implants was used as an example to first: try and draw everyone's attention, ever so briefly off of this sometimes tedious and anal retentive at other times, nit picking (obviously, even the mention of breast was not enough, there may be little hope for our long term survival) and secondly, to explain that the painting/poster at twelve feet comment, in my opinion, non sensical. A painting, a Rolex, heck, almost any well crafted piece of whatever, and YES, even breasts at twelve feet, lose a great deal of what makes them intrinsically valuable. So the author's point fell flat on me. When you think of breasts, doesn't it make you happy, if only for a moment? And dovetails comments made from a preceding the thread "Why are us "cable believers" made to defend our position so often?"

I work as a liaison between our customer's styling studios, product engineering teams, marketing, and finance groups. These minds could not be more diverse in their scope and intent. We often are confronted with a grid lock of minds as we develop a consumer product. What helps in my experience is to sometimes clear the mind and go back at it from a fresh angle. So, I thought this would be the perfect forum and a good moment to stop, inhale, exhale, and think about boobs for just a moment and then get on with the business at hand. Sometimes it seems, in our better moments that we draw each other out to a more enlightened way of looking at our hobby... and other times it seems we are destined to just stand knee deep in the mire keep whipping and already dead horse, that's all.

Carry on.

You read me too seriously. I was just continuing the joke as it were to the lengths we depart from the actual issue ... cable and wire and the people that use them. I suppose there are worse things that can be held against me.

 

[Brett a]

I scored a Bob Ross at a thrift store...

Like this one?

 

[JBL GUY]

Like this one?

Now that is funny!

Back to the topic at hand.

 

[JohnVF]

My day: made.

 

[VinylRob]

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You read me too seriously. I was just continuing the joke as it were to the lengths we depart from the actual issue ... cable and wire and the people that use them. I suppose there are worse things that can be held against me.

No, no, no problemo!

I have to take listening breaks, barbecue breaks, and sleep once in a while... even though I started this one, sometimes these things really take on a life of their own and the debates just get too dug in for me... I try to catch up and not lose continuity and every once in a while I come off a bit tangential, I'm sure. Really, my explanation was geared more toward the comment I had quoted and the author's seeming mystification in why breasts would come into the conversation. Something seems to always get lost in text, when we don't have each other here to see the face and body language. Can you imagine (reading) Monty Python and not watching all the crap that is going on? It might simply be lost on us. Anyway the response to you initially, was all meant in fun, in fact, I try, even in the most heated of threads to keep it fun. So my bad, as the kids say, I hold nothing against you, and hope I get treated the same.

Happy Listener!

 

[terra1]

No, no, no problemo!

I have to take listening breaks, barbecue breaks, and sleep once in a while... even though I started this one, sometimes these things really take on a life of their own and the debates just get too dug in for me... I try to catch up and not lose continuity and every once in a while I come off a bit tangential, I'm sure. Really, my explanation was geared more toward the comment I had quoted and the author's seeming mystification in why breasts would come into the conversation. Something seems to always get lost in text, when we don't have each other here to see the face and body language. Can you imagine (reading) Monty Python and not watching all the crap that is going on? It might simply be lost on us. Anyway the response to you initially, was all meant in fun, in fact, I try, even in the most heated of threads to keep it fun. So my bad, as the kids say, I hold nothing against you, and hope I get treated the same.

Happy Listener!

The problem with the Internet is conversation in text and not knowing the people.

I'm as guilty as anyone being tangential.

I was actually thinking about the old joke:
Officer says, "Anything you say can and will be Held against you."
Drunk: "Dolly Parton."

 

[jmathers]

Ok, back to work.....

I had read this some years ago and thought it may be an appropriate addition to the questions raised by folks here on exactly how to conduct a test to evaluate differences between cables:

http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate

I thought Serinus's comment below from the article was particularly poignant (but I am most definitely in the "wires makes a difference" camp):

"One thing is certain: Music is music, and protocols are protocols. ABX may be a valid testing protocol for laboratory equipment, but when you bring auditory sensation, emotional reaction, and other, at best, only partially understood mechanisms of brain response into the equation, you are pretending that you can objectively test that which you cannot adequately explain."

It is worth downloading and listening to the debate itself as well.

Jeff

 

[dumptruck]

"One thing is certain: Music is music, and protocols are protocols. ABX may be a valid testing protocol for laboratory equipment, but when you bring auditory sensation, emotional reaction, and other, at best, only partially understood mechanisms of brain response into the equation, you are pretending that you can objectively test that which you cannot adequately explain."

Sounds romantic, but it doesn't actually make any sense. If people did not test things they can't explain, we could not have any science, and even most semi-objective wisdom would be eliminated. Back to the caves.

Also, here is more of this notion that just because there are reasons why an objective test might not work, the whole concept is flawed. That's just not how it is. Test results (when the test is enough to at least potentially mean something) are debatable, but you can have a rational debate about them, and potentially come up with some changes to do a better or different test that may or may not have different results. This is completely different than a futile debate over whether somebody "really heard" something or not with no test, no numbers, no elimination of bias.

And since audio components and cables are nothing more than electrical conduits for that which lies beyond words and reason, how can we expect charts, graphs, and short bursts of preselected tones to tell us everything about how a component will affect us, let alone how it will interact with other components in a given listening environment?

Even though it (sort of) includes a good point about the possible limits of test signals, this is doublethink. He knows "that which lies beyond words and reason" is actually in the form of a relatively simple electrical signal, and if it's digital-source, even to actual words in a language of pure reason, for goodness sake. The idea that the value of music being something we cannot quantify somehow makes an electrical signal transfer a mystical process is false.

 

[JohnVF]

Sounds romantic, but it doesn't actually make any sense. If people did not test things they can't explain, we could not have any science, and even most semi-objective wisdom would be eliminated. Back to the caves.

Also, here is more of this notion that just because there are reasons why an objective test might not work, the whole concept is flawed. That's just not how it is. Test results (when the test is enough to at least potentially mean something) are debatable, but you can have a rational debate about them, and potentially come up with some changes to do a better or different test that may or may not have different results. This is completely different than a futile debate over whether somebody "really heard" something or not with no test, no numbers, no elimination of bias.


Even though it (sort of) includes a good point about the possible limits of test signals, this is doublethink. He knows "that which lies beyond words and reason" is actually in the form of a relatively simple electrical signal, and if it's digital-source, even to actual words in a language of pure reason, for goodness sake. The idea that the value of music being something we cannot quantify somehow makes an electrical signal transfer a mystical process is false.

That's all well and good but nobody has ever once in this hobby been able to explain to me why it matters and why I should care. The white elephant in the room is that we aren't talking about medical science here. We aren't talking about anything that has any sort of dire consequences. You can demand an ABX test of any and every preference in life. That doesn't mean that to do so isn't absurd.

Somebody tell me: what are the dire consequences of getting it wrong? Anybody?

 

[dumptruck]

I'm not demanding anything. I guess a few people are.

 

[michaelhigh]

What's most interesting and telling to me is, that despite the effort put into this test, nobody in the comments who is a naysayer seems to be at all complimentary of the effort. They're just complaining about the test not being rigorous enough. Makes me wonder why anybody would bother. These are people who aren't around to be convinced of anything. It was a noble effortly but certain not my interpretation of fun.

I've used every gauge of speaker wire from 10 gauge to 18, pro systems and home stereo, and I can't honestly say I could ever hear a difference, over decades of listening/gigging. Does that mean I'm thick?:scratch2:

 

[JohnVF]

I've used every gauge of speaker wire from 10 gauge to 18, pro systems and home stereo, and I can't honestly say I could ever hear a difference, over decades of listening/gigging. Does that mean I'm thick?:scratch2:

Nope, not at all. It means that you have come to your own viable conclusion based on a perfectly reasonable methodology for a home stereo decision.

I'm not suggesting that anybody run esoteric cabling. I'm suggesting that we have means at our disposal to make that call, for or against.

The comment you quoted was more a comment on how I feel that much of this debate is disingenuous. People bitch and moan for AB/DBT/ABX tests and when a friendly attempt is made, they just bitch and moan more because it still wasn't enough, instead of applauding the effort even if it wasn't to the rigors of a laboratory test. I don't honestly believe that the test-demanders care so much about the test. I believe instead they just want to feel superior to the "audiophool" types and making a demand for a test they will never do themselves is one way to do so.

I'm not at all referring to you in that...I don't run expensive cables, either. But that decision was made without the rigors of a blind test. I tried expensive cables, they're still here somewhere. And the difference I heard (or didn't) wasn't worth the ugliness of having garden hoses running across my living room. But I was able to make that call. I didn't need Bell Labs to oversee my decision.

 

[jmathers]

Sounds romantic, but it doesn't actually make any sense. If people did not test things they can't explain, we could not have any science, and even most semi-objective wisdom would be eliminated. Back to the caves.

You are missing the point the author is trying to make. Namely that ABX testing is valid for certain tests but not for others. He's not suggesting that all scientific testing is inappropriate, just that ABX testing is not appropriate for listening tests.

And I would genuinely like to know if there is a published ABX listening test that shows anything other than a null result.

Jeff

 

[dumptruck]

And I would genuinely like to know if there is a published ABX listening test that shows anything other than a null result

With speaker wire? If there is nobody knows about it.

 

[JohnVF]

I also don't know of an ABX test for audio that doesn't have a null result. Or one that hasn't had one crafted into it, like the Amp's Sound the Same* test.


*if I EQ them to sound the same.

 

[Anubis]

Why do you have to be able to buy something to get something out of it? It could provide one thing: context. Something that is certainly lacking in most discussions on this forum.

It's not a matter of being able to buy something, It's a matter of life getting in the way. It's $30 each day to get in which I was prepared for each time, so no issue there. However every time I was prepared to go some major "must do" thing got in the way and now it's happened again for the third time in a row. I take it as the universe trying to tell me something. I'm guessing it's a matter of content and potential BS level. Entertainment aside because you can't go wrong with that, I'm thinking it's an overwhelming amount of snake oil one has to wade through to get to the entertainment. I've been to smaller shows of such nature and have had all the "context" I can handle and none of it even worth knowing about. Basically a big waste of time. Mind you, I'm just guessing here.
I'd much rather listen to music then learn about some $22k "cable cooker" that one must have in order for their cables and system to function properly, otherwise one is not hearing any music from their system.

 

[dumptruck]

I also don't know of an ABX test for audio that doesn't have a null result. Or one that hasn't had one crafted into it, like the Amp's Sound the Same* test.

I don't either. We already discussed why they may be absent for speaker wire (null or not), but I'm not really sure why they are scarce in general. Lest anyone think this means that ABX tests just don't get results with audio stuff, they most certainly can/do. There have been lots of reasonable blind A/B tests for preference (not with speaker wire), and when those have clear results you can draw the same conclusion as you would from a positive ABX test. You can't have a preference without hearing a difference. Actually, selecting preference can be better at allowing people to identify a subtle difference, as somebody mentioned above. No, this does not require a "what is better?" debate if you are only using preference as a means to evaluate difference vs. no difference.

It seems like there must be some actual professional lab ABX tests on digital formats somewhere, if nothing else. I've never tried to look for them since that's so easy to do on yourself with your own equipment. Didn't somebody do some with dynamic compression, too?