Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[Jeffery]

It's pretty trivial, actually, and they know that but didn't choose to try to do it (and I don't mean to imply anything by that). See my previous posts.

Shoot, I deleted half my post somehow, anyway before that I said I didn't mean to imply that you said the Pass article was the end all and I actually think it's pretty interesting and also very weirdly written.

It just showed two things:

They measured different electrical properties in different cables. Conclusion - All cables ain't the same.

They heard differences in the different cables, while having no financial dog in the fight. Conclusion - All cables ain't the same.

So it was weirdly written. You just admitted to screwing up your own post. Should we all just discount your posts? Admittedly, Nelson Pass has scant credibility in the field of audio, but at least he gave it a go with test equipment, amps, and speakers instead of just a keyboard.

 

[dumptruck]

Combining those measurements with a listening test ain't enough. What do you propose?

I referred you to my previous posts and realized how long this thread is, so let me just try to answer that quickly. Some person has a setup where they are pretty sure that cable A sounds totally different from cable B. They conduct a simple blind ABX test that shows they can hear the difference. Ta-da. It's never happened. That's what I wished the test that is supposed to be the topic of this thread was. Skeptic as I may be, I wouldn't be SO surprised if you could get a result in some situations, and I would be interested to know what those might be.

I think Nelson Pass is great, btw.

 

[Junknewbian]

Hopefully this post gets yanked. This is not what TOL is about. Actually it was designed to keep this kind of nonsense out of threads that discuss peoples experiences with cables, isolation devices, power conditioning units, and other items that fall into the catch all phrase of "tweaks". From what I see you have nothing of substance to add to this conversation, but rather chose to ridicule those in an oblique manner, and then feign humor when others would object. In other words a sophisticated form of audio bullying.

Mister Pig

I'm sorry you were offended Mister Pig. It's nonsense, yes, but bullying or sophisticated? I prefaced my comment as "from left field" and you can feel free to leave it there if you won't appreciate a light-hearted comment. I won't add more comments to Your thread unless others reply with interest in the occasional reprieve from what I have noticed can be a heated debate.

 

[VinylRob]

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I guess my whole point in once again... bringing up the cable thing, this time from the point of view of this "listening test" was to indicate and open for discussion that something valid is going on with cables IMHO.

My experience tells me there are a lot of unknowns in Hifi, especially with cables. I have found that they make a valuable difference in many sound systems. I would say, I think their effect on a solid kit is more of a fine tuning nature, akin to tube rolling or vibrational isolation in its magnitude and the higher end the kit, the greater effect they have. It seems also apparent that more is going on here than the basic ideas of "wire" as a simple, stupid, conduit. Once the basic requirements are met, high end cables still effect the flavor or signature of many aspects of musical reproduction. Is it any wonder when you hear the results of say, Steve Hoffman's mastering work and then find out that his whole studio is a huge loom of Kubala Sosna's finest or lathe cutter heads for RVG or Classic use Cardas wire? Not to me!

What I think I took from the "Listening test" is that, especially with the subtleties of cable to system interactions, there is a lot of confusion and uncertainty for sure. I'm not much of a scientist or statistician, so I will need help there. Could the "test" have been performed in a way to greater dismiss inconsistency or error? Probably so. Was there anything about the "test" that was really telling? It seemed that the zip cord did take a pummeling or left people and the numbers confused at times. The subtleties of music and our hobby are elusive and don't seem to fit into easy understandable constructs and this is exactly what thrills me about the music in many of these same ways, but the flip of the coin.

That is why I care to put this subject out there again, and again. Why what bugs the crap out of me is that a seemingly large number of naysayers want to talk logic and theory and seem to show little real world experience "listening" which is what this whole thing boils down to anyway. It's not about watts, or who has bigger, cooler, whatever or what you think may be happening... for me, it is the love of the music and the experience of how it sounds. I want my kit to suspend my disbelief, just for a moment, so I can get lost in a performance, and nothing more... and when wire proves itself to support that, off to the cable store I go.

Anyway, where did we leave off before I stepped up on my soapbox???

Happy Listening!

 

[dumptruck]

a seemingly large number of naysayers want to talk logic and theory and seem to show little real world experience "listening" which is what this whole thing boils down to anyway. It's not about watts, or who has bigger, cooler, whatever or what you think may be happening... for me, it is the love of the music and the experience of how it sounds. I want my kit to suspend my disbelief, just for a moment, so I can get lost in a performance, and nothing more... and when wire proves itself to support that, off to the cable store I go.

I think you may be misunderstanding the mind of a naysayer. I listen to records many hours every day, I listen to live music many hours most weeks, I love music as much as anything in life. Like you, "when wire proves itself to support that, off to the cable store I go". To me, though, "proves" means someone can identify wire A vs B in a blind test. Preferably me, but some other person would be something.

Now, you might think, do you need a blind test to tell you that these $10 computer speakers aren't as good as these $50k towers? No, of course not. There is a reason to be skeptical of speaker wire differences. IF I heard a difference, I would then seek out to prove it to myself that I really heard it, which shouldn't be that hard. You would be right to point out that my skepticism would bias me against hearing a difference.

 

[VinylRob]

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It just showed two things:

They measured different electrical properties in different cables. Conclusion - All cables ain't the same.

They heard differences in the different cables, while having no financial dog in the fight. Conclusion - All cables ain't the same.

So it was weirdly written. You just admitted to screwing up your own post. Should we all just discount your posts? Admittedly, Nelson Pass has scant credibility in the field of audio, but at least he gave it a go with test equipment, amps, and speakers instead of just a keyboard.

Not to completely derail my own thread but...

I agreed with you on the first two comments, now about Nelson Pass... I thought this guy was admired as a genius, some kind of Hifi god, and just an all around nice guy? I admire him, and think his stuff from 1st watt on is some of the best solid-state I have ever heard (coming from a tube guy)! I don't get your comment. Are you kidding???

Happy (1st watt) Listening!

 

[Jeffery]

I referred you to my previous posts and realized how long this thread is, so let me just try to answer that quickly. Some person has a setup where they are pretty sure that cable A sounds totally different from cable B. They conduct a simple blind ABX test that shows they can hear the difference. Ta-da. It's never happened. That's what I wished the test that is supposed to be the topic of this thread was. Skeptic as I may be, I wouldn't be SO surprised if you could get a result in some situations, and I would be interested to know what those might be.

But they never said what their testing methodology was, you are just assuming they heard - or "thought" they heard - a difference and moved on. I don't know one way or another, but the tests appear to be a bit more tedious than one and done IMHO.

I think Nelson Pass is great, btw.

So you're the one.

 

[doucanoe]

Have you ever tried various (significantly different geometry, material etc.) cables in an attempt to make a determination for yourself?

I'm not sure why someone else's A/B blind test would sway your opinion one way or another. Particularly when fault can be found in any test methodology or result collection.

I admit not reading all of this mess so my apologies if this has been covered 38 times by now.

RC

 

[Mister Pig]

Hopefully this post gets yanked. This is not what TOL is about. Actually it was designed to keep this kind of nonsense out of threads that discuss peoples experiences with cables, isolation devices, power conditioning units, and other items that fall into the catch all phrase of "tweaks". From what I see you have nothing of substance to add to this conversation, but rather chose to ridicule those in an oblique manner, and then feign humor when others would object. In other words a sophisticated form of audio bullying.

Mister Pig

I'm sorry you were offended Mister Pig. It's nonsense, yes, but bullying or sophisticated? I prefaced my comment as "from left field" and you can feel free to leave it there if you won't appreciate a light-hearted comment. I won't add more comments to Your thread unless others reply with interest in the occasional reprieve from what I have noticed can be a heated debate.

but rather chose to ridicule those in an oblique manner, and then feign humor when others would object.

Looks like your second post proves my point. Predictable how the hurt feelings and my intentions were just misunderstood card gets played after someone says "hey that ain't cool dude."

Some call it passive aggressive behavior, others call it being tasteless, I see it as the same type of behavior bullies used in school when dealing with those they held in contempt.

Mister Pig

 

[Jeffery]

Not to completely derail my own thread but...

I agreed with you on the first two comments, now about Nelson Pass... I thought this guy was admired as a genius, some kind of Hifi god, and just an all around nice guy? I admire him, and think his stuff from 1st watt on is some of the best solid-state I have ever heard (coming from a tube guy)! I don't get your comment. Are you kidding???

Happy (1st watt) Listening!

Yes, my bad for not separating the man from his gear.

 

[Junknewbian]

but rather chose to ridicule those in an oblique manner, and then feign humor when others would object.

Looks like your second post proves my point. Predictable how the hurt feelings and my intentions were just misunderstood card gets played after someone says "hey that ain't cool dude."

Some call it passive aggressive behavior, others call it being tasteless, I see it as the same type of behavior bullies used in school when dealing with those they held in contempt.

Mister Pig

From what is written, not what is assumed from high school (talk about oblique), only one of us is bullying, and only one of us is taking away from the topic at hand by making a personal attack. I seriously only intended a joke. Also, the apology is sincere, so just let's leave the postings to those who are serious.

 

[dumptruck]

So you're the one.

Yep, I guess (although you should see the thread where I tried to say that the F5 is not necessarily a "bargain". oh boy... no, some other guys are the one, I'm just a distant admirer). I don't trust his ears/taste, but I like his approach to having fun with engineering, I like his support of DIY, and I like a lot of the things he's designed.

Have you ever tried various (significantly different geometry, material etc.) cables in an attempt to make a determination for yourself?

Nope. It is hard for me to find any motivation to try. Remember, I'm talking about this here, but I'm not going around telling everyone their fancy cables are dumb. I have used a few cables that are not much like lampcord, if that's what you mean, but I have not attempted to test myself.

I'm not sure why someone else's A/B blind test would sway your opinion one way or another. Particularly when fault can be found in any test methodology or result collection.
RC

It is very unlikely that it would sway my opinion. If there was a positive result, someone hearing a difference between two reasonable speaker cables in a even vaguely proper test, it would sway my interest. If I could duplicate that result for myself, OR if lots of other people could and I couldn't for that matter, I would be downright fascinated.

 

[VinylRob]

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Yes, my bad for not separating the man from his gear.

Guess I still don't get it, but that's ok.

 

[Jeffery]

Yep, I guess. I don't trust his ears/taste,

What has he written that causes you to not trust his ears/taste? That he didn't specifically call out a DBX test on his speaker wire test?

and I like a lot of the things he's designed.

Just not his amps.

 

[doucanoe]

Nope. It is hard for me to find any motivation to try. Remember, I'm talking about this here, but I'm not going around telling everyone their fancy cables are dumb.

It is very unlikely that it would sway my opinion. If there was a positive result, someone hearing a difference between two reasonable speaker cables in a even vaguely proper test, it would sway my interest. If I could duplicate that result for myself, OR if lots of other people could and I couldn't for that matter, I would be downright fascinated.

A/B blinds for me are interesting but with all the variables involved, have come to the reality that unless I can prove something out in my own set-up, with my gear and my room, I personally wouldn't take a lot of stock in them. Not that I felt that the results would be either accurate or inaccurate, but it would be meaningless unless I could count on the same in my room.

You can't, so I'm not sure what the point of that exercise would be.



RC

 

[VinylRob]

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I think you may be misunderstanding the mind of a naysayer. I listen to records many hours every day, I listen to live music many hours most weeks, I love music as much as anything in life. Like you, "when wire proves itself to support that, off to the cable store I go". To me, though, "proves" means someone can identify wire A vs B in a blind test. Preferably me, but some other person would be something.

Now, you might think, do you need a blind test to tell you that these $10 computer speakers aren't as good as these $50k towers? No, of course not. There is a reason to be skeptical of speaker wire differences. IF I heard a difference, I would then seek out to prove it to myself that I really heard it, which shouldn't be that hard. You would be right to point out that my skepticism would bias me against hearing a difference.

I wouldn't want to try and put my words in someone else's mouth. I understand skepticism and think it to be a healthy thing these days, what I struggle with is logic and reason that shuts down even the notion of trusting what someone might hear, let alone trusting what you have heard. If someone hasn't listened to a variety of cables, and drawn some kind of conclusion, how can they have anything relevant to contribute? For my mind set, experience trumps logic in this situation. There is at least as much faulty logic on this subject as there is opportunity and ability to misperceive your own live experience. That's just my take on it, I seriously mean no offense and would never intend to stifle anyone, that would defeat the whole point of the thread.

Happy Listening! play: Rolling Stones -Let it Bleed

 

[cwall99]

Experimental Methods and Design. Sounds like what we used to call the Scientific Method.

Actually, it was a 300-level class I took in my undergrad Psychology program that taught us how to design experiments properly.

To your point, though, you could have called it, "How to use the scientific method properly and reliably."

 

[cwall99]

When I read about this topic (and how can you not when you're touring through AK?), I keep thinking that there's a subtle issue that doesn't get discussed much: we have people who say they can hear a difference, and we have people who say one sounds better than the other. Obviously, if you have a preference for wire X over wire Y, you can hear a difference.

But if you flip that on it's head and say, "I can hear a difference between wire X and wire Y," you haven't really said whether you prefer wire X or wire Y.

In this test, however, experimental design issues aside, the question was not, "Can you hear a difference?" (though it was implied), it was, "Which do you prefer?" (or words to that effect).

So, if I'm a manufacturer of $8,000 speaker cables, and I only have 56% of the listeners showing a clear preference for the sound of my wires over lamp cord (not really the sound of my wires, but, instead, "the contribution to a system's sound that can be traced to my wires"), and if the bulk of the people who use expensive speaker wires tend to actually prefer the sound of lamp cord to the sound of expensive wires (look it up, it's in there -- I quoted it earlier in this thread), then I might be a little anxious about the results of this experiment, flawed though it is, being discussed.

If it turns out that people who buy expensive speaker wires, when put in an ABX test, tend to prefer the sound of $3 lamp cord, I could stand to lose a lot of business.

Then again, if I bought $8,000 speaker cables and found out, by participating in a test like this, that I actually preferred the sound of $3 lamp cord, I might do one of two things:

• Not tell anyone about it and just live with that stye in my aural eye every time I turn on my system, or...
• I might just find someone else who's looking to upgrade their speaker wires and I'd sell them mine (they're broken in after all), and use the proceeds to buy some other piece of kit.

I still favor the idea of other audio clubs replicating the research, even though I doubt we'll ever put this one to bed.

 

[JohnVF]

If it turns out that people who buy expensive speaker wires, when put in an ABX test, tend to prefer the sound of $3 lamp cord, I could stand to lose a lot of business.

The assumption being that the target market buys into the validity of the ABX test as a reliable way of choosing what one will find satisfying over the long run as opposed to merely pointing out a difference, or none, in a system that one is completely unfamiliar with.

You could run 100 tests all set up for a great degree a statistical accuracy and I'd still shrug my shoulders and try for myself. I encounter a LOT of subjective things that are put under an objective lens in my line of work, and I'll just say that it keeps a lot of people employed in the testing industry more than it actually pans out in the marketplace.

If you've ever wondered why advertising is so incredibly annoying, look no further than the objective research being applied to subjective criteria:
http://www.ipsos.com/asi/

 

[dumptruck]

A/B blinds for me are interesting but with all the variables involved, have come to the reality that unless I can prove something out in my own set-up, with my gear and my room, I personally wouldn't take a lot of stock in them. Not that I felt that the results would be either accurate or inaccurate, but it would be meaningless unless I could count on the same in my room.

You can't, so I'm not sure what the point of that exercise would be.

The "point" would be that if anyone demonstrated reliably identifying one adequate gauge speaker cable from another in a blind ABX, it would be a big difference from the current situation of nobody having ever done that, and perhaps a good reason to pursue some things in your (my) room.

When it comes to an ABX test where a small group prefer A, I agree with you: It's nothing but an interesting exercise and I'm not about to count on A being preferable to me or anyone else in my room. Audibility ABX tests are different than subjective ABX tests.