Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[luvvinvinyl]

waterjetguy, too bad you don't have a decent audio dealer nearby. Mine lets me try cables, or anything else I'm thinking of buying, in MY system, in my house, before I buy. I've tried many, many items, before making my choices.

Even most, if not all, of our cable manufacturer advertisers will let you do that, for the cost of return shipping, if you don't like their product.

 

[Bigerik]

waterjetguy, too bad you don't have a decent audio dealer nearby. Mine lets me try cables, or anything else I'm thinking of buying, in MY system, in my house, before I buy. I've tried many, many items, before making my choices.

Even most, if not all, of our cable manufacturer advertisers will let you do that, for the cost of return shipping, if you don't like their product.

Funny thing, Ernie, but I have probably made mention of this a bunch of times in TOL over the years, but I have yet to see any of the naysayers who have taken advantage of it.

 

[dumptruck]

Since when is TOL the place where new members come, make a perfectly valid point (probably unaware it's been beaten to death and doesn't really belong in this thread), and are greeted with sneering sarcasm?

 

[Bigerik]

For me and my $$$$ ,I will need some pretty concrete proof that a given cable offers a real, quantifiable benefit before I ante up.

Ok, so why not just listen to them in your system and see what happens? Why do you need someone else to tell you what you are hearing. More people chose Pepsi than Coke in the Pepsi challenge. Do you drink Pepsi now because of that?

 

[dumptruck]

Why is this happening? Okay I know why, but can we just delete all these posts that are about the usual cable argument and not about the test?

P.S. I started drinking RC Cola after I chose it in a blind cola test :tears:

 

[waterjetguy]

Because we have already heard about 1000 times in TOL and AK in general that the cable makers are a bunch of crooks, just out to fleece the monied suckers out there. To which we get a constant influx of anti-cable heroes, swooping in to save the day.

Mister Cable never hangs around
When he hears this Mighty sound.

"Here I come to save the day"

That means that Mighty Mouth is on his way.

All I can say is, wow.
Touched a nerve there, I think.

Are you implying that I'm full of hot air, or that I'm a "naysayer", or both?
I'm not sure I understand the apparent vehemence of your reply.

I don't think it is inappropriate to expect a mfg to back up their claims, especially when they are often claiming to provide benefits that cannot be measured, but openly heard.

Which is why there is so much interest in the blind testing that is the root of this thread.

I was intending to point out that since it is so difficult to design and perform a valid DBT on audio cables, that the mfg.'s would be best suited to take it on.

Having broached that subject, some reasons occurred to me as to why they have not done so.

I was CAREFUL, however, not make any accusations, nor to claim that such cables are worthless. Far from it. I am hoping that someone actually WILL perform a really good, valid test, so that I can make a well reasoned purchase when the time comes.

And I'm not even sure that auditioning them in my own home, on my own system will be all that meaningful. Short audio memory and all...
Although, maybe comparing cables on the Left and Right channels, and bouncing the balance back and forth, might be pretty telling.

As I said before, I do have a bias against high end cables, but my mind is not shut. Problem is, I'm an engineer, and i want to KNOW.

So let's keep it civil. I meant no offense to anyone.

 

[waterjetguy]

Since when is TOL the place where new members come, make a perfectly valid point (probably unaware it's been beaten to death and doesn't really belong in this thread), and are greeted with sneering sarcasm?

Thanks, dump truck.

I'm not even sure what point it is that doesn't belong in this thread.

I thought everything I said was a natural development of the blind testing of cables.

 

[Mister Pig]

Hmmm I thought the point of the OP post was that these cables did not sound the same? Thats all. Not that one sounded better or worse than the other. Or that one offered better value than another. Just that this test is an example of cables sounding different.

It makes sense if they do sound different, that people would have different preferences as for what they like and dislike.

Thats all that I read into the opening post.

Yes I understand that there are those who feel once a minimum criteria is met in terms of materials and measurements that a cable functions "properly". I understand the other side of the coin too that others feel materials, geometry, terminations, shielding, and what not are responsible for differences. But I don't think thats the point of the OP post. But I could be wrong, people tell me I am all the time.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[waterjetguy]

Also, I don't drink cola, any brand.

If there's a DBT of single malt scotch, sign me up!:thmbsp:

I am open to persuasion!

 

[Bigerik]

All I can say is, wow.
Touched a nerve there, I think.

Are you implying that I'm full of hot air, or that I'm a "naysayer", or both?
I'm not sure I understand the apparent vehemence of your reply.

I don't think it is inappropriate to expect a mfg to back up their claims, especially when they are often claiming to provide benefits that cannot be measured, but openly heard.

Which is why there is so much interest in the blind testing that is the root of this thread.

I was intending to point out that since it is so difficult to design and perform a valid DBT on audio cables, that the mfg.'s would be best suited to take it on.

Having broached that subject, some reasons occurred to me as to why they have not done so.

I was CAREFUL, however, not make any accusations, nor to claim that such cables are worthless. Far from it. I am hoping that someone actually WILL perform a really good, valid test, so that I can make a well reasoned purchase when the time comes.

And I'm not even sure that auditioning them in my own home, on my own system will be all that meaningful. Short audio memory and all...
Although, maybe comparing cables on the Left and Right channels, and bouncing the balance back and forth, might be pretty telling.

As I said before, I do have a bias against high end cables, but my mind is not shut. Problem is, I'm an engineer, and i want to KNOW.

So let's keep it civil. I meant no offense to anyone.

My Mighty Mouth post didn't actually apply to you. It was just a comment on what happens around here on a regular basis. Been moderating this forum for more than 6 years now (yes, since day 1 of TOL), and we get the same argument over and over again about the cable manufacturers being a bunch of crooks, and anything they release being worthless marketing material. Thats why this discussion will never convert so many people - they just refuse to believe it.

 

[Art K.]

Hmmm I thought the point of the OP post was that these cables did not sound the same? Thats all. Not that one sounded better or worse than the other. Or that one offered better value than another. Just that this test is an example of cables sounding different.

It makes sense if they do sound different, that people would have different preferences as for what they like and dislike.

Thats all that I read into the opening post.

Yes I understand that there are those who feel once a minimum criteria is met in terms of materials and measurements that a cable functions "properly". I understand the other side of the coin too that others feel materials, geometry, terminations, shielding, and what not are responsible for differences. But I don't think thats the point of the OP post. But I could be wrong, people tell me I am all the time.

Regards
Mister Pig

That's how I read the first post as well. Well said.

 

[waterjetguy]

Wow, I wonder why every manufacturer of a x wpc hasn't done the same thing vs all other x wpc amps?

Because there are accepted measurements to qualify an amplifier's performance. Frequency response, THD, IM distortion, headroom, etc.

Cables have no such accepted yardsticks, as far as I'm aware.

Furthermore, the claims of improvements that cannot be measured, but must be heard, require listening tests. I'm all for high end cables if the benefits are real, (and if the bang-for-my buck is great enough), and listening tests are apparently necessary to prove that. (Double blind, of course)

Let me be CRYSTAL CLEAR: I am not, and don't mean to imply, that anyone should or shouldn't buy, beg, borrow or steal any cable/interconnect that floats their boat. I don't think any less of someone because they have X wire in their tonearm or even if they place their source components on fluffy pillows. We all love audio.

I just want to know what's really going on.

I mentioned a possible test method in a previous post in this thread. I may pursue that one if I can make the time for it. (Lots and lots of projects ahead of that). If I do put the hardware to do the cable testing that I imagine, i will probably loan it out to other Akers, so that we can get a lot of data/impressions. Who knows, we might figure some stuff out. Knowledge is never a bad thing, after all.

 

[Jeffery]

Man, in numerous threads here there has been a link to a test that Pass did years ago on speaker cables. Different speaker cables measured differently. Capacitance was one variable that was the most different. Capacitance is also a variable in passive speaker crossover networks. The difference in capacitance of speaker cables is great enough that Pass made note of it not affecting certain models of the amps they manufacture. Is it such a stretch to think that if these differences in capacitance can influence an amplifier that they could also influence the crossover network in a speaker? Influence for better or worse, it might make the difference in how a certain cables sounds with a certain amp/speaker combination.

THAT'S HOW CABLES SOUND DIFFERENT!!!!

In full disclosure, I do not use anything more exotic than rope braid OFC copper, but I'm absolutely open to the possibility that different cables COULD sound different.

I'll even do the legwork. Pass does not sell speaker cables.

https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil

 

[Junknewbian]

Most of my entries come from left field, so here's another:

Instead of using lamp cord for my speakers, I tried powering my lamp with $8000 speaker cables. Wow! The light was amazing! Crystal clear, no graininess in my vision. I saw things in my room that I never saw before. And I can't explain this, but the books I read under that lamp were just more lifelike, I felt like I was in the story. Incredible!

 

[Jeffery]

Most of my entries come from left field, so here's another:

Instead of using lamp cord for my speakers, I tried powering my lamp with $8000 speaker cables. Wow! The light was amazing! Crystal clear, no graininess in my vision. I saw things in my room that I never saw before. And I can't explain this, but the books I read under that lamp were just more lifelike, I felt like I was in the story. Incredible!

So it was a positive experience with a clear benefit. Sounds like you made a difference for the better.

 

[dumptruck]

Man, in numerous threads here there has been a link to a test that Pass did years ago on speaker cables.

Pass's test, while much more scientific than the one on topic, also fails to show scientific evidence that Pass himself (or anyone else) can hear differences between reasonable lengths of reasonable wires. It also does not show any difference in the sound produced by actual speakers (100kHz?). I am skipping the part about significant resistance combined with speaker impedance peaks changing response - that is the well known damping factor effect that is generally a non-issue.

 

[Jeffery]

Pass's test, while much more scientific than the one on topic, also fails to show scientific evidence that Pass himself (or anyone else) can hear differences between reasonable lengths of reasonable wires. It also does not show any difference in the sound produced by actual speakers (100kHz?). I am skipping the part about significant resistance combined with speaker impedance peaks changing response - that is the well known damping factor effect that is generally a non-issue.

I didn't say it was the end all of speaker cable tests.

They measured properties of speaker cables.

They heard differences in speaker cables.

If you read to the end, they mention that they hear differences. How the hell are they supposed to provide scientific evidence of what they hear?

Providing repeatable "scientific" measurements of the wires ain't enough. Combining those measurements with a listening test ain't enough. What do you propose? Embedding electrodes into their brains so we can once and for all get some "scientific evidence" of what they are hearing?

Really?

 

[dumptruck]

If you read to the end, they mention that they hear differences. How the hell are they supposed to provide scientific evidence of what they hear?

It's pretty trivial, actually, and they know that but didn't choose to try to do it (and I don't mean to imply anything by that). See my previous posts.

Shoot, I deleted half my post somehow, anyway before that I said I didn't mean to imply that you said the Pass article was the end all and I actually think it's pretty interesting and also very weirdly written.

 

[Mister Pig]

Most of my entries come from left field, so here's another:

Instead of using lamp cord for my speakers, I tried powering my lamp with $8000 speaker cables. Wow! The light was amazing! Crystal clear, no graininess in my vision. I saw things in my room that I never saw before. And I can't explain this, but the books I read under that lamp were just more lifelike, I felt like I was in the story. Incredible!

Hopefully this post gets yanked. This is not what TOL is about. Actually it was designed to keep this kind of nonsense out of threads that discuss peoples experiences with cables, isolation devices, power conditioning units, and other items that fall into the catch all phrase of "tweaks". From what I see you have nothing of substance to add to this conversation, but rather chose to ridicule those in an oblique manner, and then feign humor when others would object. In other words a sophisticated form of audio bullying.

Mister Pig

 

[terra1]

Disclaimer: Debates are for entertainment purposes only.

All I can say is, wow.
Touched a nerve there, I think.

Are you implying that I'm full of hot air, or that I'm a "naysayer", or both?
I'm not sure I understand the apparent vehemence of your reply.

I don't think it is inappropriate to expect a mfg to back up their claims, especially when they are often claiming to provide benefits that cannot be measured, but openly heard.

Which is why there is so much interest in the blind testing that is the root of this thread.

I was intending to point out that since it is so difficult to design and perform a valid DBT on audio cables, that the mfg.'s would be best suited to take it on.

Having broached that subject, some reasons occurred to me as to why they have not done so.

I was CAREFUL, however, not make any accusations, nor to claim that such cables are worthless. Far from it. I am hoping that someone actually WILL perform a really good, valid test, so that I can make a well reasoned purchase when the time comes.

And I'm not even sure that auditioning them in my own home, on my own system will be all that meaningful. Short audio memory and all...
Although, maybe comparing cables on the Left and Right channels, and bouncing the balance back and forth, might be pretty telling.

As I said before, I do have a bias against high end cables, but my mind is not shut. Problem is, I'm an engineer, and i want to KNOW.

So let's keep it civil. I meant no offense to anyone.

There are those who will not trust manufacturers for being biased with self interest.

I guess, for you, the question would be what would be the need?
I have given a short anecdotal evidence of my experience and it was based on problem solving a need. If you don't have any more need than curiosity, I'm not sure that would be a strong motivator. I considered cost, goals, budget, priorities, and system and today I would add personal hearing. When I bought new, I got to the point the cheapest upgrade was cable and wire. Since I got into vintage in 2008, it's cheaper to change out components. And some of the expensive cable and wire could damage fragile vintage connections, if they fit at all. I also now have some hearing loss in my left ear. But I can still perceive differences in speakers and amps.

As far as placebos, that argument is also a common discussion point. My take is it is not really used in the context where it belongs. As a part of a controlled study. It's like, "Power of suggestion is powerful, so that's why you hear what you hear." Not considering the individual. Not all people are affected by placebos or there would be no need for medicine. No cancer treatments, no vaccinations needed. Just placebos. And the few that respond to placebos do not necessarily invalidate whole studies. People are different. Even psychiatrists and therapists will treat patients by asking questions of individuals to sort out causes as each case may be different.

There are lots of threads on the cable and wire conflicts. A couple recent ones with the usual arguments can be found here if you are interested.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=441608
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=444502
It should be clear why the controversy gets sensitive and heated.

TOL is about sharing experiences in a safe open forum without the bullshit card called on the one sharing the experience, and letting readers decide for themselves.

Short term audio memory aside, if you say you don't hear a difference, no one should be calling you a liar or claim you are in denial or deaf.

Your personal experience is probably the only real and most valid evidence you will ever get. Certainly more than any debate on a cyber forum or manufacturer's brochure.

Disclaimer: Debates are for entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to the truth or accuracy of actual experience are purely coincidental.