Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[terra1]

Let's see, we have four cables; A) zip cord at less than $3, B) $8,000 cables, C) $1,200 cables and D) well over $1,000 cables.

I look at the test numbers and I would give a "win" to results that show a "no preference" between the $3 zip cord and the others that cost from 400 to 2,500 times more.

The test results:

The zip cord vs the $8,000 cable B, shows a result of:
56% cable B
39% zip cord
5% no preference
Which in my book is 56% to 44% The winner by a close margin cable B.

Zip cord vs the $1,200 cable C shows results of:
41% cable C
29% zip cord
29% no preference
Which in my book is 41% to 58%. Zip cord wins!

Zip cord vs the $1,000 plus cable D results are:
41% cable D
27% zip
32% no preference
Zip cord wins again by 59% to 41%

Looks like zip cord for only $3 takes 2 out of 3 in the test. It only lost out to the cable B that cost $8,000!

Oh, but wait! The $8,000 cable B was trounced by cable D by a margin of 59% to 15% (27% no preference).
But In the test between the zip cord and cable D, 32% couldn't tell the difference.

I think this test tells me is that $3 zip cord flat out RULES.

Good for you.

Test results were to help see if there are preferences or differences heard.

If they help you come to a conclusion that works for you, then they succeeded.

 

[gvalent]

I don't care one way or another, but your math is fuzzy. "No prefence" is not a win for zip cord just because you don't like the price of the competitors.

When a price is 400 to 2500 times higher and there is no noticable difference in a product?

What is so fuzzy about that?

 

[terra1]

Danger John VF, Danger!

You're going to be drawn into one of those cesspools.

Enter at your own risk ...

 

[gvalent]

Danger John VF, Danger!

You're going to be drawn into one of those cesspools.

Enter at your own risk ...

Your wrong, I'm dead ass serious about what I wrote.

Taking the findings of this test shows me that zip cord is the best bargin in audio.

 

[terra1]

Your wrong, I'm dead ass serious about what I wrote.

I know. No need to be defensive with me.
I know where you are coming from and I accept you as you are.
Thank you for sharing your feelings though.

I'm not the want that needs convincing.

 

[JohnVF]

When a price is 400 to 2500 times higher and you there is no noticable difference in a product?

What is so fuzzy about that?

Danger John VF, Danger!

You're going to be drawn into one of those cesspools.

Enter at your own risk ...

You're right. It just irritates me when people argue for objectivity then blatantly bias numbers.

"No preference" just means "No preference". Maybe the person wasn't even paying attention. Maybe they were so far from the sweet spot, that there really was no difference. Maybe they just didn't care. Or they were nearly deaf. It could be anything. We simply don't know, and certainly can't throw 100% of their weighting behind the cheap wire simply because its cheap. Especially when those who DID have a preference, preferred something else. It's fuzzy math, because its not statistically correct. The test was too small, anyway, to prove anything. But it does serve as a conversation starter. And it is interesting to me that when a preference was stated, it tended not to be the cheap stuff. I'm not going to run out and spend $8k on speaker wire, but it's interesting, if not statistically significant.

 

[Art K.]

Another cable thread going nowhere at the speed of light...shocking really. Try speaker break in, it's really progressing...

 

[JohnVF]

Another cable thread going nowhere at the speed of light...shocking really.

Yes, but it really depends upon what type of wire the shock was delivered with.

 

[gvalent]

Yes, but it really depends upon what type of wire the shock was delivered with.

I'd say fully broken in zip cord would be best.

 

[hypertone]

Capacitance doesn't matter with speaker cable. The output impedance of the amp and the impedance of the speaker are too low for a few hundred picofarads to make any difference. Unless maybe you are trying to hear RF frequencies?

Maybe if your wires are a few hundred meters long?

Now at higher impedance (phono stage) it's a different story.

Inductance would be more important than capacitance with speaker wire.

 

[Anubis]

I think one of the roadblocks to this debate, is that its a reluctant debate. In fact, its not really a debate. Its an argument.

On one hand you have a group of people who seem pretty well convinced that cables make a difference. To the point that it's just accepted in their peer group, its not really a debate at all among them in conversation. So why should they come up with a test to prove what most of them already have come to accept based on observation only? If they weren't called (ph)ools or deluded, there wouldn't be a debate at all. Its more a debate about their motives, they already believe cables sound different. If they didn't encounter the naysayers, they'd be happy campers.

On the other side, you have a group of people who seem bent on proving the first group wrong. They don't really seem all that interested in whether or not there's a difference or not. They may say they do, but I don't get the feeling that they really do. They've already concluded that there is none, and they simply seem to want to make group one look foolish. If they cared more about finding "The truth" they'd have at least tried some of the cables already. Few of these people have. There's no real curiosity. They may feign it. But they already believe they're absolutely right, no question.

So the debate comes less down to whether cables make a difference, and more about do people have a right to listen to whatever they want. One group doesn't think they do. They believe the entire audio world should be ruled by their objective rules. Subjectivity, in general, seems to bother these people a great deal. So everything has to be debated...but its not a debate to learn the truth. Its to bring the other side to their point of view.

Because of this, I highly doubt you'll ever witness a really intense test to find out. The cable believers are far enough along in convincing themselves, that you get the kind of test you have here. Not convincing enough for the naysayers. But convincing enough for those who already believe. They're really just having fun, as I doubt they're out to prove much.

The other tests you see are the type that have a forgone conclusion, from the naysayers, to prove somebody wrong. The conclusion of these tests is known before they start, or its biased into them. Like the "all amps sound the same*" test.

*They all sound the same if I run one of the amps through an EQ to sound exactly like the other, because we're only testing amp topology not really sound but you didn't get that from the title because its way down here in the fine print. And when I'm called out on it I will whine and say it was a testing anomaly when I wasn't allowed to EQ and somebody got all the "guesses" right. But please use the words "all amps sound the same" in forums, even if they obviously don't.

Really good points John!:thmbsp:
We will never see the topic of cables settled. I'll never understand why it is such an extremely important topic so much that it causes wars and all kinds of nasty things. It is so hotly argued that I am surprised it's not on some political election ballot or something as if it is more important than anything else. I've seen cable "debates/arguments" turn into violence on other forums.
I'll never understand why this topic can never be calmly discussed especially seeing that cables are not the most important link in the chain to any system. At time it might start out that way, but very quickly turns into a mess.
The way I "personally" look at it is that cables are like gasoline for your car. It needs it to run and get you from point A to point B, but 87 octane, 89 and 91, it's all the same stuff and it makes no difference these days which one you use. As long as your car doesn't sound like a woodpecker, it doesn't matter. Same with cables, as long as the length, gage and type are right for your application then it's good.
I was thinking that perhaps the whole thing is partially fueled by "misery loves company." Somebody goes out and perhaps gets talked into purchasing a $2000 cable (when much less would have solved the problem if it was a cable), and realizes soon after that they got taken and then starts to make the same claims the salesman did in an attempt to justify it (all while trying to figure out how they will pay bills and put food on the table). Then the next phase is to try to convince others to do the same eventually resulting in filing BK or something and thus losing everything in the end. *This is just one of many possible sceneros I recently thought of.* It may be way off the mark, but maybe not.
The bottom line for me though which I stand by to my dying day, is that the whole thing is subjective 100%. So at the end of the day who cares what cables anyone uses or any other gear for that matter. Does anyone of us have The Universal Stereo System that everyone has to share and use? It's all whatever rocks the individual's world. If someone else doesn't like it or thinks it's dumb then they don't have to use it. They are free to choose what they want to use. If someone is well off and wants to purchase uber expensive cables, that's their freedom and perogative, but not their right to dismiss anyone else's choice. Whether someone wants to use uber expensive "miracle cables", DIY cables or Monoprice or dollar store cables should not matter to anyone except the user.
Just my personal sense on it and agreement on whole or in part is required.

 

[Brett a]

I'm dead ass serious about what I wrote.

That's the problem; people take it all too seriously.

Really good points John!:thmbsp:
The way I "personally" look at it is that cables are like gasoline for your car. It needs it to run and get you from point A to point B, but 87 octane, 89 and 91, it's all the same stuff and it makes no difference these days which one you use.

This simply is not true. Higher octane fuel burns more slowly than low octane. High compression engines are designed to run on high octane fuel. I know. I have one. There's arguably no harm in burning lower octane in a high compression engine, no one will tell you they are the same.

Non-high compression engines don't really care what octane you use, so you might as well use the least expensive.

What is the same is the basic gasoline from station to station. Although it is not the same once specific companies add their particular mix of additives.

 

[bowtie427ss]

What is the same is the basic gasoline from station to station. Although it is not the same once specific companies add their particular mix of additives.

This is exactly what i understand to be true.:yes:

Now, if you have a buddy at the local airport that can hook you up with some 100 low lead, that's still the real stuff AFAIK.

 

[Anubis]

That's the problem; people take it all too seriously.


This simply is not true. Higher octane fuel burns more slowly than low octane. High compression engines are designed to run on high octane fuel. I know. I have one. There's arguably no harm in burning lower octane in a high compression engine, no one will tell you they are the same.

Non-high compression engines don't really care what octane you use, so you might as well use the least expensive.

What is the same is the basic gasoline from station to station. Although it is not the same once specific companies add their particular mix of additives.

And there-in lies the point I was trying to make. Who cares?! The whole audio cable thing is the most stupid thing I have ever seen in my life. I would bet my entire life's income or even my life itself that if cables were not required for our stereo systems there would be people arguing about the air surrounding the system or the color of the carpet in one's house and how it effects the sound of your system! Anything to judge others in a caste system.

I'm trying to think of a way to avoid using cables all together just to be against the grain. (ok.... I got nothin yet) (yes, I'm being silly)
I don't care what cables I use as long as they work and DOES NOT effect the sound of my system. I equally don't care what cables anyone else uses. It makes no difference as long as they work.

 

[gvalent]

That's the problem; people take it all too seriously.

I wasn't all that serious actually. I was a wee bit taken aback by Terra1's "cesspool" comment, but in hindsight he wasn't being all that serious either.

I do think it's rather telling when 50% of the test group found $3 zip cord was either better or had no preference over $8,000 cables.

.........and yes, I realize the test was about as scientifically and statistically relevant as a bad third grade science fair project.

 

[House de Kris]

I was thinking that perhaps the whole thing is partially fueled by "misery loves company." Somebody goes out and perhaps gets talked into purchasing a $2000 cable (when much less would have solved the problem if it was a cable), and realizes soon after that they got taken and then starts to make the same claims the salesman did in an attempt to justify it (all while trying to figure out how they will pay bills and put food on the table). Then the next phase is to try to convince others to do the same eventually resulting in filing BK or something and thus losing everything in the end.

I think this comment just illustrates that we all don't run in the same circles of humanity. I don't think I know a single person who, if they feel they got mislead and ripped off, will in turn encourage others to get screwed as well. The people I know would loudly discourage others from throwing their money away in a fashion similar to what they did if they felt there was no benefit. Perhaps the people you know are more insecure and selfish than the people I hang out with. I dunno.

To use a gasoline engine story for support, as you did, I offer this: say some guy spends $1500 on an engine treatment claimed to increase gas mileage by 50%. Soon afterward, he discovers he's getting exactly zero change in mileage. All the people I know would tell others not to waste their money on such a stunt. But apparently, the people you know would start telling others, nay insisting, they need to spend $1500 on this treatment to get better mileage. Sad really.

By the way, every dealer of expensive cables I know of will offer a full refund if not satisfied. No need for a cable purchaser to hang their head in shame for being duped.

Perhaps there's another reason for people who spend $2000 on a cable to suggest others should do the same, just guessing here, because they're satisfied with the results and wish to share the joy?

 

[kirk57]

I was thinking that perhaps the whole thing is partially fueled by "misery loves company." Somebody goes out and perhaps gets talked into purchasing a $2000 cable (when much less would have solved the problem if it was a cable), and realizes soon after that they got taken and then starts to make the same claims the salesman did in an attempt to justify it (all while trying to figure out how they will pay bills and put food on the table). Then the next phase is to try to convince others to do the same eventually resulting in filing BK or something and thus losing everything in the end. *This is just one of many possible sceneros I recently thought of.* It may be way off the mark, but maybe not.

Personally, I think that's a bit of a straw man argument. I wonder how many here have ever spent $2000 on a cable. I don't mean 'MSRP', or 'when new' or 'on loan from a dealer'. I mean plunked down two grand of your hard earned money on a cable.

Anybody?

 

[jsisk]

 

[Anubis]

I think this comment just illustrates that we all don't run in the same circles of humanity. I don't think I know a single person who, if they feel they got mislead and ripped off, will in turn encourage others to get screwed as well. The people I know would loudly discourage others from throwing their money away in a fashion similar to what they did if they felt there was no benefit. Perhaps the people you know are more insecure and selfish than the people I hang out with. I dunno.

To use a gasoline engine story for support, as you did, I offer this: say some guy spends $1500 on an engine treatment claimed to increase gas mileage by 50%. Soon afterward, he discovers he's getting exactly zero change in mileage. All the people I know would tell others not to waste their money on such a stunt. But apparently, the people you know would start telling others, nay insisting, they need to spend $1500 on this treatment to get better mileage. Sad really.

By the way, every dealer of expensive cables I know of will offer a full refund if not satisfied. No need for a cable purchaser to hang their head in shame for being duped.

Perhaps there's another reason for people who spend $2000 on a cable to suggest others should do the same, just guessing here, because they're satisfied with the results and wish to share the joy?

Well, I don't actually know anybody at all personally, period so I don't actually "hang out" with anyone. I was sort of using that as a generalized scenero from a psychological standpoint. A general socialogical observance if that's a better term. Believe me, misery loves company and I know of people who would do exactly that, however that also called Sociopathalogical behavior.
I'm just trying to figure out the logic, or in this case the illogic to the whole cable argument which is probably an impossible task as was well pointed out earlier a few posts up.
I know of "high-end cable" dealers as well and none of them I know offer refunds period.
I don't personally know anyone who has spent $2k on a cable(s) and I'm almost certain nobody in these forums have, but I know of and have met some who have spent as much as $3700 on a single innerconnect cable and then expect others to do the same whether or not budget allows! I don't say anything to them except "yeah, ok I'll think about it. Well, I gotta leave now." just to get away. I mean, what can one say to that?
What I'd like to say is, "if that cable or cables made that much difference in your system, I would advise taking a look at your other components including your speakers because you have a major problem somewhere amongst them." Of course, I don't because I don't want to get into a whizzing match.

As for sharing the joy, that's hit and miss at best. What may effect one system (presuming in a positive way), may have no effect or the opposite effect on another. It's also 100% subjective, what one person hears is different from another. It's also a subject of individual belief. For example, I personally do not want cables effecting the sound of my system, so I wouldn't bother going beyond what I need a cable to do. If I want to effect the sound I will look at more key components that have bigger impact. (I'd also keep the source in mind).

 

[Bigerik]

And your point is?