G.D.T.R.F.B.
Active Member
Bare wire sounds best. I find it sounds less "shrouded" than insulated wire.
Bare wire for connections when possible.
Speaker wire update-- Don't use extension cords!
- Thread starter zenith2134
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Bare wire for connections when possible.
kevintomb
Well-Known Member
I have learned after being in audio for many years, any time any change is introduced, (such as changing wires) we as the listener usually will tend to listen to "See if we hear a difference". That heightened state of awareness, often will bring out aspects due to the more involved nature of Listening deeper to see IF it sounds better.
It may have just sounded better, true.....
or
He may have been listening more intently, due to just making a change, looking FOR a change and was more aware of certain aspects of the sound.
So every time one change is made, it is in reality a couple changes. The new wire, combined with the listeners awareness OF a change, hence their different listening style.
Maybe he was using 6 gauge inductors.
Or not.
Djcoolray
Addicted Member
It really depends on the equipment being used.....
If you got some old equipment that has never been rebuilt and a pair of speakers with a sensitivity of less than 92db....your not gonna hear a difference. Then, if you’ve got some new cheap bottom of the line equipment and a pair of mismatched speakers that the highs are screeching with almost no bass effect....your not gonna hear a difference. Fact is, after creating a matched setup of quality equipment, that’s the only time a difference in equipment can be heard. Because, if you have a great deal of line noise.....it won’t matter what kind of cables you use.
For the average system that is just cobbled together by what is available.....it won’t make a difference. Now if you have a Luxman R-117 receiver and a pair of Yamaha NS-1000 speakers with the capacitors upgraded....you’ll hear a difference.
If you got some old equipment that has never been rebuilt and a pair of speakers with a sensitivity of less than 92db....your not gonna hear a difference. Then, if you’ve got some new cheap bottom of the line equipment and a pair of mismatched speakers that the highs are screeching with almost no bass effect....your not gonna hear a difference. Fact is, after creating a matched setup of quality equipment, that’s the only time a difference in equipment can be heard. Because, if you have a great deal of line noise.....it won’t matter what kind of cables you use.
For the average system that is just cobbled together by what is available.....it won’t make a difference. Now if you have a Luxman R-117 receiver and a pair of Yamaha NS-1000 speakers with the capacitors upgraded....you’ll hear a difference.
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Djcoolray
Addicted Member
Sensitivity is more revealing of what is recorded, revealing more noise from turntable vibration....so much so that people with revealing speakers swap out equipment and make a multitude of improvements to defeat line noise and vibration until a huge amount of sonics in soundstage is accomplished. With lower sensitivity, you don’t hear flawed recordings or a difference in cables or all of the frequencies recorded. But for sensitive speakers you need an ultra quiet low distortion amplifier. Then a person can hear a difference in the cables they use, but first I would suggest a hearing test prior to the expense of any equipment.
For the new AVR’s that people use now, there is so much functionality in the circuitry that unless you have great hearing as most people don’t....your not gonna hear the difference. So better cables are only for a small nitch of specific high end audio equipment. The real situation about cables is that no one mentions what equipment that they are using....
Just their opinions....
kevintomb
Well-Known Member
So better cables only work for people that have great hearing and High priced equipment?
Not being snarky at all (seriously) but you realize that has been the fall back argument for several years as to why many do not experience better sound with higher priced cables?
Djcoolray
Addicted Member
Lets say a person finds an unrestored SX-450 and a pair of unrestored HPM-100 (100 Watt version), is the person going to hear a difference on unrestored, bottom of the line equipment ?? Then with people using older equipment that they replace as soon as it burns up with whatever speakers they find....do you really think that they would hear a difference?? There are many that just put equipment together and by trial and error finding a pair of speakers that sound good with an amplifier, of course the crossover in the better sounding pair of speakers matches the power board in the amp and better cables would render a difference. Then with the new AVR’s that have every gadget to include a hookup for the kitchen sink, there is circuitry to compensate at the output of the power board allowing the compensation for the use of different types of speakers and better cables might make a difference. Do you think that out of spec circuitry will yield a difference?? Do you think that we all are at the same place in our experience with an audio experience?? Do you think that everyone on this site continues to look for a top of the line amp or receiver and restores it.....or has it restored along with a high end pair of speakers? No, most people due to historic economic conditions cobble up what they find and it’s far from a match. Those that can afford better or have the tenacity to continue looking for better until they find something that they think has that magically awesome sound. Then only when people find that huge ominous soundstage will better cables make a difference. Most people do not know technically what makes an amp and a pair of speakers match and starting a thread on the matter generally creates more disagreements than cable threads do. So the amount of people that would benefit from better cables are few. But the main variable is that many people need a hearing test to see how well they can actually hear an accurate level of sound in the first place.
With all due respect....
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Blue Shadow
Waiting for Vintage Gear from this century
The ability to hear a frequency spectrum as in a hearing test is completely different from the ability to hear differences in sonic presentations from gear or wire changes.
Djcoolray
Addicted Member
Especially when you're tone deaf....
kevintomb
Well-Known Member
You make many good points, although they are posed as questions, which obviously I do not truly know the answers to.
.
I would love to see or even read about a comparison of low priced to high priced cables, where the listener does not have prior knowledge of which is which and can accurately determine one from the other!
Djcoolray
Addicted Member
Yes, that would be a good idea with new equipment that is owned by a great many people.
Ziinda
Active Member
I know there's been a few months passed by on this topic but after reading it I had to add what I've gathered about the subject over the years. This like another more recently popular activity, crossover capacitor replacement, has about the same popularity in the ”prove it” argument. Asking anyone who has just spent $400 on components, endless hours of research, hours of hands on interaction replacing each cap maticulously making perfect solder joints and even more important removing the old ”bad/awful” caps without destroying any copper traces of just making a mess of things.
The part I find interesting in this process is the fact that most who are doing this are not even testing the original parts to see if they are bad in the first place. There is 1 more thing I find even more interesting, it's how we all want to know if it sounds better afterward. Now do you really expect someone who has done this, considering the money and time invested and being the the one that physically tore apart the speakers, learned everything about them and came out with a final product that is their creation, to come back andr say ”i can't hear any difference”? I have read a number of posts where that has been the outcome but in comparison to the shear number of crossover mods done recently and the overwhelming unbelievably better sounding speakers after changes were made, it seems that your brain will simply not allow you to NOT hear an improvement. Albeit there are probably many crossovers that very well have needed new parts, but without testing, it's impossible to know.
This comparison to wires (which used to be a major argument) and how they affect sound can once again have people spending huge amounts of money and taking the time to assemble and install those perfect runs, planning on this to be their perfect and final upgrade before they reached nirvana and can sit back and enjoy their hard work and be part of that tiny group who have succeeded in making a perfect system.
How could anyone expect to hear anything but a huge difference, even if they might question the entire thing and might not think it's a big enough difference, they aren't going to come back here and admit it. Not only feeling foolish but also alienating them self from their tiny group of like minded people that they have been learning from and agreeing with for so long.
There's also the other aspect of the people who say prove it to us by doing a simple blind test with changed crossover capacitor brands, you're never going to round up anyone to do this when they know it will end up bad for them, once again, destroying friendships, looking foolish and generally demystifying the entire issue. I'm sure there are a few with hearing that is good enough to be able to tell every single change but those people are not the ones that will want to ever feel a need to prove anything to anyone for any reason. On top of it all, who really wants to be put to a test and have nothing to really gain except to prove that they aren't lying? Maybe if there was a huge prize for being part of a test and results are tabulated in a way to show who the best one was, then let everyone figure it from there. Meaning if the best one got a 100% correct choice out of all tests then there's no need to question that there is a difference and there's no need to worry about anyone elses scores no matter what they may be. This way nobody is going to be judged for bad guesses. On the other hand if the results are all about 50% (saying that the tests will have 4 variables per test so a 50/50 guess won't do) correct then there's no need to publish results, it can safely be concluded that it's more about each individuals effort with their own system and could actually be in their own minds, which is fine, it just needs to not be discussed as a relevant improvement, again this will anger many sellers of high $ wires and caps, but it could also prove its benefits as well. I think there's too much at stake and the outcome is determined by people who have nothing to gain from it either way. That is not how companies want to see their futures decided, it is way to fair and they would never allow it, there'd be payoffs and a ringer with the answer sheet will be in the mix (even if there's others that can hear the differences).
So as you can see by taking an obvious peek at how things really are done, you would never be able to believe anything no matter what the outcome just from common sense and knowing how things are done in this point in time, there's never going to be an untampered result.
The part I find interesting in this process is the fact that most who are doing this are not even testing the original parts to see if they are bad in the first place. There is 1 more thing I find even more interesting, it's how we all want to know if it sounds better afterward. Now do you really expect someone who has done this, considering the money and time invested and being the the one that physically tore apart the speakers, learned everything about them and came out with a final product that is their creation, to come back andr say ”i can't hear any difference”? I have read a number of posts where that has been the outcome but in comparison to the shear number of crossover mods done recently and the overwhelming unbelievably better sounding speakers after changes were made, it seems that your brain will simply not allow you to NOT hear an improvement. Albeit there are probably many crossovers that very well have needed new parts, but without testing, it's impossible to know.
This comparison to wires (which used to be a major argument) and how they affect sound can once again have people spending huge amounts of money and taking the time to assemble and install those perfect runs, planning on this to be their perfect and final upgrade before they reached nirvana and can sit back and enjoy their hard work and be part of that tiny group who have succeeded in making a perfect system.
How could anyone expect to hear anything but a huge difference, even if they might question the entire thing and might not think it's a big enough difference, they aren't going to come back here and admit it. Not only feeling foolish but also alienating them self from their tiny group of like minded people that they have been learning from and agreeing with for so long.
There's also the other aspect of the people who say prove it to us by doing a simple blind test with changed crossover capacitor brands, you're never going to round up anyone to do this when they know it will end up bad for them, once again, destroying friendships, looking foolish and generally demystifying the entire issue. I'm sure there are a few with hearing that is good enough to be able to tell every single change but those people are not the ones that will want to ever feel a need to prove anything to anyone for any reason. On top of it all, who really wants to be put to a test and have nothing to really gain except to prove that they aren't lying? Maybe if there was a huge prize for being part of a test and results are tabulated in a way to show who the best one was, then let everyone figure it from there. Meaning if the best one got a 100% correct choice out of all tests then there's no need to question that there is a difference and there's no need to worry about anyone elses scores no matter what they may be. This way nobody is going to be judged for bad guesses. On the other hand if the results are all about 50% (saying that the tests will have 4 variables per test so a 50/50 guess won't do) correct then there's no need to publish results, it can safely be concluded that it's more about each individuals effort with their own system and could actually be in their own minds, which is fine, it just needs to not be discussed as a relevant improvement, again this will anger many sellers of high $ wires and caps, but it could also prove its benefits as well. I think there's too much at stake and the outcome is determined by people who have nothing to gain from it either way. That is not how companies want to see their futures decided, it is way to fair and they would never allow it, there'd be payoffs and a ringer with the answer sheet will be in the mix (even if there's others that can hear the differences).
So as you can see by taking an obvious peek at how things really are done, you would never be able to believe anything no matter what the outcome just from common sense and knowing how things are done in this point in time, there's never going to be an untampered result.
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BamaBilly
Motorcycles and Music
Correct, older wire is likely to be pure copper, more modern wire will be copper clad aluminum.
Macaroonie
Super Member
Here's a little hand grenade. Sorry of it's been discussed before.
Do try your cables for direction. This applies to speaker cable and interconnects. Before everyone comes out screaming remember this is FREE to try. To make sure the test is valid you must disconnect and then reconnect to make sure there is no contact cleaning coming into play when you make a comparison.
Here's an example from lomg ago. I was sellng a system like this.
Oracle Alex , DL103
PS audio MC phono pre
Quad 303
JBL 18Ti on tallish stands
There was a custom made cable to go from the PS pre out tto the 303 input ( 4 pin Din ). The idea was to keep the speaker runs short. The pre power cable was about 6 mtr long.
In the first try the system sounded a bit nondescript and flat.. From previous experience I knew that it shouldn't have been like that. Connections were all good , phase was good. These were all demo items so no break in required.
On a hunch I remade the pre power cable just flipping the wire the other way round.
Plugged it back in and 5 mins later the customer was beaming and reaching for his check book.
My previous comments about contact cleanliness didnt apply as the demo irems were in regular varied use.
FWIW the customer got to keep the re made cable along with brand new items for his purchase.
We did get a VERY enthusiastic field report a few days later. The chap did mention that he had never believed about cable direction , but hey , hearing is believing.
Remember , it's free to try.
Do try your cables for direction. This applies to speaker cable and interconnects. Before everyone comes out screaming remember this is FREE to try. To make sure the test is valid you must disconnect and then reconnect to make sure there is no contact cleaning coming into play when you make a comparison.
Here's an example from lomg ago. I was sellng a system like this.
Oracle Alex , DL103
PS audio MC phono pre
Quad 303
JBL 18Ti on tallish stands
There was a custom made cable to go from the PS pre out tto the 303 input ( 4 pin Din ). The idea was to keep the speaker runs short. The pre power cable was about 6 mtr long.
In the first try the system sounded a bit nondescript and flat.. From previous experience I knew that it shouldn't have been like that. Connections were all good , phase was good. These were all demo items so no break in required.
On a hunch I remade the pre power cable just flipping the wire the other way round.
Plugged it back in and 5 mins later the customer was beaming and reaching for his check book.
My previous comments about contact cleanliness didnt apply as the demo irems were in regular varied use.
FWIW the customer got to keep the re made cable along with brand new items for his purchase.
We did get a VERY enthusiastic field report a few days later. The chap did mention that he had never believed about cable direction , but hey , hearing is believing.
Remember , it's free to try.
Quadman2
Lunatic Member
The beating of this poor old cable horse just keeps being flailed upon.
After considerable looking into the "cable issue" there seems to be no scientific research that seems to dictate that cables make a significant difference in the transmission of sound, other than the size (AWG gauge) over prescribed distances, the composition of copper and degree of oxidation. Much of the testing has been highly subjective, often flawed with sound pundits getting involved.
As well, the amount of impedance (ohms rating) and amp power also have to be considered in type/amount of wire to be used.
When it come to wire runs, 18/16AWG has a capacitance of 10-20 pFarad per foot, with less than a 1% loss in the audible range (20hz-20kHz) in a 50 ' length.
What seems to be of more import are the connections, any joining of wire, the coiling of wire, and the obvious factors mentioned above.
FWIW
Q
After considerable looking into the "cable issue" there seems to be no scientific research that seems to dictate that cables make a significant difference in the transmission of sound, other than the size (AWG gauge) over prescribed distances, the composition of copper and degree of oxidation. Much of the testing has been highly subjective, often flawed with sound pundits getting involved.
As well, the amount of impedance (ohms rating) and amp power also have to be considered in type/amount of wire to be used.
When it come to wire runs, 18/16AWG has a capacitance of 10-20 pFarad per foot, with less than a 1% loss in the audible range (20hz-20kHz) in a 50 ' length.
What seems to be of more import are the connections, any joining of wire, the coiling of wire, and the obvious factors mentioned above.
FWIW
Q
Erik Tracy
Everyone's happy when the wizard walks by
Why is this thread even in The Cutting Edge Forum?
Mod - It doesn't belong. I just moved to General Audio Discussion.
Mod - It doesn't belong. I just moved to General Audio Discussion.
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Maybe because as said above, only people like you and I having quality modern gear can/will hear a difference?
NH-MAN
Addicted Member
Utter BS with no basis in fact, I tested 7 pairs of speaker cables with various "types" of construction a few years ago over a period of a few months and I could here a difference in EVERY cable. ( I was sick for years at home with lyme so alot of time was spent on this)
It was mostly a slight difference but I "did" find out that trying something different might give you that little change one is looking for if you stumble on the right one for you.
What I used at the time.
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