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Stylus Microscopes

HI All,
The stylus wear pattern shown in the above link demands some answers. I have spent a lot of words talking about the nonsymmetry caused by skating force. The photos do not clearly show this. Perhaps it is there but my experience tells me that the wear pattern signature should be more obvious with this amount of wear. The facets are not exactly symmetrical but close.

I'm not sure of the explanation. Perhaps the stylus was used on a tangential arm. Or, maybe, the lighting angles are not what I expect. Or, perhaps, there is another reason.

I feel a little shaky assuming a tangential arm because they are relatively rare. But I really can't see another explanation based upon what I know.

Can anyone else explain this symmetrical pattern?

Sparky
 
I tried to enhance the picture a bit, but you need to get closer.

----EDIT----
Karma16 if you look at the 2. Picture, note the shadows on the left and right. The angel is a bit of, but you can clearly see the wear isn’t symmetrical. The 1. Picture is simply not sharp. That means the 2. picture in ozmoid's link.
 

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Wow, this is a really fantastic thread! Sparky, I must commend you for making some of the most educational posts that I have read on this forum. I'm actually learning something that I didn't undertand before.

Personally, I really like Absolon's idea, and I was thinking about suggesting the same thing, until I read his posts. One of thel things about this idea is that you can save your images, and watch your wear progress over time, which would be quite usefull for some of us novices, I think.

I completely concurr with you assessment of the ET2 tonearm. It is my all time favorite tonearm too, and I absolutely love mine. :thmbsp:
 
absolon said:
Thanks ozmoid, I supplied that very link to a thread on this subject about a year ago.
Click to expand...
That's probably where I remember seeing it! :thmbsp:

If we post this stuff often enough, our "collective consciousness" can remember more of it than any one of us ever will. :smoke:
 
goldear said:
Wow, this is a really fantastic thread! Sparky, I must commend you for making some of the most educational posts that I have read on this forum. I'm actually learning something that I didn't undertand before.

Personally, I really like Absolon's idea, and I was thinking about suggesting the same thing, until I read his posts. One of thel things about this idea is that you can save your images, and watch your wear progress over time, which would be quite usefull for some of us novices, I think.

I completely concurr with you assessment of the ET2 tonearm. It is my all time favorite tonearm too, and I absolutely love mine. :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

HI goldear,
From one ET-2 owner to another, Thank you. That's a very nice thing to hear.

It is very gratifying to this old person to find a place on the net where I feel I have something to offer. Fortunately, there are many other very knowlegable folks here to keep me honest. The hunger here for knowledge is very good. I guess much of the information that shows up on AK is not generally available anymore. So, we become the gate keepers of the knowledge.

You mentioned that you also have an ET-2. Today I posted a description of my turntable system in the "What TT's do you guys have?" thread in my usual wordy way. I think it is post #942. You might check it out and we can talk about it and yours. Boy there sure are a ot of people into vinyl here. What a breath of fresh air.

Please don't misunderstand. I listen to CD's. They are hard to avoid and they are getting better. But my true love is still vinyl.

Thanks Again, Sparky
 
nice thread.. :thmbsp: as a vinyl fan...stylus wear is a problem i would very much like to detect before its too late...
as others have i'm sure..i thoroughly enjoyed reading all the thoughts and posts on this subject...
ironically...the problem of vinyl wear has actually helped steer me clear of any expensive to replace cartridge upgrades beyond a decent budget model for years...
until i can make a reasonably good assessment of the state of a stylus tip..i figured it would be easier and cheaper to just stick with a good budget model and change the stylus every 6 months of regular playing or every 8 months for infrequent playing...unless i know the stylus assembly or suspension has suffered inadvertent physical damage or i hear unusual mistracking in which case i replace instantly...
would be a bit different with deeper pockets i'm sure..but even then..finding replacement stylii for better cartridges can be the proverbial hunt of the haystack needle sometimes..

it might be my failing memory..but i once read somewhere that sometimes the stylus suspension itself will wear out before the actual diamond tip begins to approach the end of its useful life and develop significant wear...which from an audio analysis point of view makes it doubly difficult to detect a worn stylus..is the mistracking due to a failing suspension or the tip :scratch2: )
obviously a suitable microscope will help eliminate diamond wear...

curiousity has also kept me wondering ..just how well aligned a diamond is to the cantilever and whether that also contributes to uneven or accelerated stylus/record wear as much as user misalignment or inaccurate bias downforce settings..
(...ie does the greater elliptical axis of the diamond set into the cantilever tube always sit exactly perpendicular to the vertical triangular plane that the stylus tube makes with the record surface ?)
often..a visual inspection by naked eye alone gives no reliable clue...and makes even reasonably accurate bearwald (or other) alignment difficult to achieve...
sometimes even on a new cartridge the stylus cantilever does not 'appear' exactly perpendicular to the cartridge body..and therefore final alignment of the cartridge depends on aligning the stylus cantilever itself...thus leaving the niggling doubt as to how accurately set is the diamond in the cantilever tube...
then i remind myself that life is too short :D and keep my fingers crossed that the manufacturers stated tolerances were met with my current stylus...
although sometimes even by naked eye...it look highly dubious.. :scratch2:
any more thoughts on the subject of stylus wear and detection would be well appreciated...
if anyone comes up with a reliable or even approximate way of determining antiskate bias without relying on the crude antiskate dial...please post your thoughts too...

great thread..great info :thmbsp:
(where else would you find such stuff discussed so earnestly as the one and only AK ? :scratch2: )
 
While we can all appreciate your caution and not wanting to damage your precious vinyl.....you are leaving an incredible amount of great sound in the grooves with a budget cartridge. As a minimum, you might want to look at the M97eX or AT440ML (top of the budget level cartridges). I was floored by how much additional info is in those grooves after moving up from a V15MRxV to the K-b. Keeping track of hours played is also useful.
 
HI melo,
I agree with YamahaB-2.

Budget cartridges are fine if:
1) You really can't afford the higher priced models.
2) For some reason the cartridge will be exposed more than normal physical danger such as from kids.
3) You don't care about better sound.
4) You don't have an adequate tone arm for the better cartridges.

Otherwise, I feel that cartridges are an example of getting what you pay for. I have always bought the best cartridge I could afford; sometimes more than I could afford. As Yamaha-B2 said, there is an incredible amout of information in the grooves that you will never hear without a great cartridge. My sense of your post is you have never heard a really good cartridge. Take a flyer and buy one. You will be amazed by what you hear.

As for stylus and record wear, the better the cartridge, the better the quality of construction. Excellent stylus alignment and the accuracy of the tip geometry are some of the reasons you pay more for a good cartridge. If you are really concerned with wear, the more expensive cartridge is the better deal.

I must say that I think you are being overly paranoid about record wear. Granted it is important but with reasonable care and concern about worn styli, records will withstand quite a lot of use. There are other issues with record damage that are more important. Mainly, get the best tone arm you can ( I mean great, not good), use a great cartridge, keep your records clean, use care about stylus wear, do not expost to heat, replace the paper liners with plastic ones, store them properly, don't let others handle your precious records, don't loan them, and you will find that records will last far longer than you think. And, you don't need a microscope. Your ears will do a great job of detecting stylus wear early before record damage occurs. Microscopes are nice but not essential.

I can assure you that you are not more careful or concerned than me. I am completely obsesive when it comes to record care. Yet, I play my records---and enjoy them. I have made a science out of record care. As a result I have records bought in the early 1960's that still sound new. Develop good record care habits and you will be OK.

If you collect records as an investment, that's a different story. Then, don't play them at all; a fools game in my opinion. Look, records exist to store music for our enjoyment and enlightenment. Use them for exactly that purpose and don't let the possible dangers get in the way and spoil the fun. At least that's my view as one who has over 5000 records, in excellent condition, to enjoy.

Have there been threads on AK discussing record care? If not, maybe we need one. What do you all think?

Sparky
 
thanks for the sound advice all round :thmbsp: ...i settled on an at95e several years ago having tried a few more expensive cartridges...at 110e, nagaoka mp11 boron, ortofon vms 20 e, AR e77 i think, ortofon om 10, om 20..rega bias...and a few others...to be honest in my set up the at 95e made the best match in terms of sound and compliance to my arm...at the budget end of the scale..
i've amassed a decent collection of vinyl over the years none of which has deteriorated much with regular playing to my ears...
as for paranoia.. :D i guess anyone with a decent size record collection..much of which is hard to replace gets a little anxious about using a less than decent condition diamond in the grooves...especially after those inevitable cueing 'mishaps' that happen from time to time..
i will try an at 440 eventually though as i've heard many good reviews on this site...and i like the audio technica sound very much..
 
The AT95E is not a bad cartridge; properly one of best sub $100. But it is not comparable with the better ones like the Ortofon Kontrapunkt.

And think twice before going from an AT95E to the M97eX, it might not be worth it.

The AT440ML is out of production I assume you mean AT440MLa :) they are dropping in price ($84,99), so now they are prised about the same as the M97eX!.
 
:scratch2: i agree.. :yes: the at440MLa does looks excellent value at that price as a future upgrade..the kontrapunkt prices however are way out of my league :sigh:
also...the idea above about modifying a school microscope sounds within my budget though :D...how did you guys manage to get a picture of the stylus as shown above ?..they do look pretty useful at that size... dirt /wear/ damage etc..
 
Here's mine

Karma16 said:
HI All,
When I had my repair shop I used a stylus microscope purpose designed for the job. It was a Swift laboratory microscope which was modified and marketed by Shure. It was 200 power. It’s no longer offered but I have talked to the engineer at Shure who designed it in the early ‘60’s.
Click to expand...

I found one I've had for over thirty years, and it still seems in pretty good shape. Needs a good clean, but I dug off some of the dust to post pictures of it here.

It's a Bauch & Lomb made for Shure, 25x to 100x. I haven't gotten around to plugging it in, I need to make sure it won't fry me first, the leads look a bit fragile.

Two bulbs positioned just over the stage one on either side, I can remember keeping a piece of putty with it so as to position the stylus for viewing.

Wonder if 100x is enough, it's been too long to remember.
 
Last edited:
:tresbon: thanks for the link..& wow...that is a neat gadget indeed..good price too for those images..i feel a 'Dear Santa...'..coming on.. :D
 
Aage said:
I found one I've had for over thirty years, and it still seems in pretty good shape. Needs a good clean, but I dug off some of the dust to post pictures of it here.

It's a Bauch & Lomb made for Shure, 25x to 100x. I haven't gotten around to plugging it in, I need to make sure it won't fry me first, the leads look a bit fragile.

Two bulbs positioned just over the stage one on either side, I can remember keeping a piece of putty with it so as to position the stylus for viewing.

Wonder if 100x is enough, it's been too long to remember.
Click to expand...

HI Aage,
Fantastic to find such a thing in our junk piles. It's not the same as the one I have but the the idea is identical. It appears to be an earlier attempt. There are some major functional differences, some relatively unimportant and some may be very important.

1) MIne has an aluminum eye shade that kept the light directed downward and out out your eyes. I think a shade could be made easily.

2) 100X rather than 200X. This could be a serious issue. After I get everything aligned I never use less than 200X. I certainly would give it a try. It might work fine.

3) The most serious lack is the stage. On mine, the stage can be adjusted independently in the X and Y axis using knobs that gives very fine control. This is a very valuable feature for set up. Is it a show stopper? Well, if I were using it professionally where time is important, then yes. But as a hobbest, we can afford to fiddle around until the stylus wanders into the field of view. I can see how this stage would be very frustrating to use.

If you check places like Edmond's Scientific, I'm pretty sure you can buy a micro adjusting stage that you could mount on the base. There are several scientic supply houses that sell microscope accessories. If the magnification proves to be adequate, I would definitely add the adjustable stage.

I wonder if this scope was made for mono, spherical stylus shapes?

You have nice instrument. I hope it works for you.

Sparky
 
cheers mandak :thmbsp: another very informative link :yes:
..i think i'll forward it to the missus as a early xmas hint :D
...there are so many things i'd like to try with a digital image microscope...its a must have gadget :thmbsp:
 
I actually ordered the geek thing I linked to, it just looked to fun not to try. I will let you know if it works or if it just will make a great gift to a 7 year old explorer :)

It has 300X where the Intel thing only has 200X, but as usual with computer stuff I don't expect it to be nowhere near a real optical 300X.
 
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