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SX-780 Issues / PA3004?

Mike Scaggs

New Member
First post here so thanks in advance.

I am a tube amp tech and have recently started learning some new things with my Pioneer SX-780. So I am have an issue that I so far cannot seem to find the problem. I bought a restore kit and have done all the work so far, still no love. I sure would appreciate a helping hand folks :)
  • No relay click out of protection mode
  • Replace all electrolytic, Diodes (Not zeners)
  • new relay
  • new transistors
  • warmed up all solder joints
  • new filter caps
So one thing I seem to think might be an issue is the PA3004.
PA3004 Voltages

1 / 13.7v
3 / 00.7v
4 / 00.7v
5 / 00.0v
6 / -08.112v
7 / 00.042v
8 / 00.503


Cheers!
Mike
 
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Pins 3 and 8 on the modules should be almost zero volts. (0.000)
Pins 1 and 0 on the modules should have (1=+1.4v), (0=-1.4v). No signal.

This post below, is for a SX-1980 so some interpretation is needed.
One of Marks technical posts:
MTF, circa 2017
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/sx-780-dead-pa3004.717168/
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pioneer-pa3004-ic-required.760886/
PA3004 troubleshooting

That PA3004 chip rarely goes bad, it's usually the support circuitry around it that gets cranky.
It's function is the protection sensing, then controlling the relay appropriately.
It's not all that rare, it's pretty widely used in MANY Pioneer models of the era, so a salvage chip from a donor unit is best.

Just for grins I will do a rundown on the PA3004, perhaps your service guy can read it, and say BTDT...
There's nothing worse than digging up a unique chip, putting it in, and getting the same thing happening.
Many have mistaken the PA3004 for the problem, and Pioneer does many strange things with and around the PA3004 in the SX-1980.

First there is the +13v power for the PA3004, on Pin 1, it's taken off the +34v supply, which depends upon the +80v supply.
I will grant that if the zener diode D301 (13v) opens up, the PA3004 could be fried through the 2200 ohm 1/2 watt resistor if the +80 gets onto the +34v rail.
edit: 5/28/2021 johnhoef has proven that 10v on pin 1 is inadequate to run this chip.

Pin 3 is the output to the base of Q302, a NPN relay driver transistor, I usually use a higher voltage (120+) to-126 instead of the to-92's they usually use.
The Q302 driver transistor and relay (and 3.3k 2W resistor) circuit is run off of the +100v raw dc, so if Q302 shorted or had an inadequate voltage rating, the PA3004 could be fried. Q302 sees +100v on it's collector when the relay is not on.

Pin 4 is the DC sense, and it LOOKS pretty straightforward, Left and Right channel power amp output through the 75k ohm summing resistors R304 and R305 but they had a SURPRISE!!! PNP transistor Q301 is ANOTHER DC input to the "summing node" and if leaky can drive someone nuts. That's not all because if IT is in good shape, yet the TWO off-board transistors that feed it (Q34 2sc869, one on each amplifier card) have a leaky one - it will still misbehave. The BOARD's pin 7 input for the protect sits near +13v and pulling it down some is the protect trigger. I just replace Q301 with a 2sa / ksa992 transistor and be done with it. The two sensing transistors (2sc869) on the gwh-109 / gwh-110 amp cards get 2sc / ksc1845

Pin 5 is the ground for the PA3004.

Pin 6 is another power supply for the PA3004 to operate, -7.6v derived from the -34v supply through R309 3.6k 1/2W. No zener, just the resistance... (yech)

Pin 7 is the AC power on/off sense for the whole unit: The 100v or more AC from the transformer secondary goes through a voltage divider R311 620k and R310 1.5 meg AND neglecting the current drawn by this pin 7, WOULD have about 30v AC at low current there. How much is actually there depends upon the PA3004's current draw on that pin.

Pin 8 timing capacitor to ground, 47uf 16v

How do I test that pin 4 junk if voltages look ok? Subtractive troubleshooting. Requires de-soldering so I pull Q301 and see if protect behaves, then a new Q301 goes in and I pull D302 to see if it is coming in from outside of the PA3004's board.
 
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It looks like your pin 4 voltage is a little high- if it goes above about 0.3V, the PA3004 will fault, so I would trace back from that pin to find the problem... It may be worth measuring the pin 4 voltage with the PA3004 removed to see if the detect circuit in the chip is clamping it or not.

Also pin 7 voltage should be measured in AC- should be around 0.7VAC

The PA3004 still might be good- it appears to be faulting properly in this case, but if you're still having problems with it once you sort out pin 4, @merlynski and I designed a replacement pcb here:

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pa3004-chip-pcb-substitute.950028/

If you need one to try I still have a couple populated boards and would be happy to send you one. Good luck!
 
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It looks like your pin 4 voltage is a little high- if it goes above about 0.3V, the PA3004 will fault, so I would trace back from that pin to find the problem... It may be worth measuring the pin 4 voltage with the PA3004 removed to see if the detect circuit in the chip is clamping it or not.

Also pin 7 voltage should be measured in AC- should be around 0.7VAC

The PA3004 still might be good- it appears to be faulting properly in this case, but if you're still having problems with it once you sort out pin 4, @merlynski and I designed a replacement pcb here:

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pa3004-chip-pcb-substitute.950028/

If you need one to try I still have a couple populated boards and would be happy to send you one. Good luck!

Hey thanks for the help.
So with the PA3004 out the following are the voltages
1-13.6v
3-0v
4-0v
5-0v
6-15.6v
7- 6.9vAC
8-0v
 
Hey thanks for the help.
So with the PA3004 out the following are the voltages
1-13.6v
3-0v
4-0v
5-0v
6-15.6v
7- 6.9vAC
8-0v
Mike, don't use the - as a separator before/between numbers, it is very confusing. I use a : as a separator as it is not a polarity indicator (or a math function).
Disregarding the - those numbers look OK.
 
Mike, don't use the - as a separator before/between numbers, it is very confusing. I use a : as a separator as it is not a polarity indicator (or a math function).
Disregarding the - those numbers look OK.

If pin 4 is 0.7V with the 3004 installed and 0.0V without it, that could indicate a problem with the 3004. Send me a DM and I can send you a 3004 replacement board to try out as a replacement!
 
Mike PM'd me yesterday morning around noon, and I did not see the thread until today, where I also got two PM responses -
I thought I did something that I apparently didn't DO during my first, 9 PM reply to him:
so, here it is: I only do PUBLIC help (like this in the forum) but NOT PRIVATE HELP, as no none else benefits from it.

At 8 am today he answered the 9pm long post I did that consolidated a lot of SX-780 advice,
and nothing showed wrong. but he hadn't taken voltage readings of the main power supplies.
He did force a relay pull-in by grounding Q26's collector. It did pull in.
His kit seller was Eastwood / peace.love.and.music so he's got good parts and the right ones.

He then answered with a second message 30 minutes later, with the power supply voltages:
q25 2sb712 +25v in, +13.5v reg out ** 25.0v / 13.7v
q19 2sd325 +51v in, +39.5v reg out ** 49.8v / 39.4v
q20 2sb536 -53v in, -39.5v reg out ** -52.1v / 51.3v :(

The sound voltages didn't measure out as I'm guessing I need a relay click first???

q20 2sb536 -53v in, -39.5v reg out ** -52.1v / 51.3v :(

His regulated 39.4v is NOT regulated, but running at 51 volts..... Get a new Q20, 2sb536 or replacement !!!!
Since Q25 is putting out 13.5v, I have to assume that D14 is ok, probably Q21 and Q23 as well.

I notice that Q21 is a 2sc945, so we have to be extra careful to locate the base of THAT transistor.!!
IF it is KSC945 = eBc but if it is KSC945C then = eCb

MIKE: WHAT is Q21 marked with on the parts number ON the component?



I just caught up with all of this.
 
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q20 2sb536 -53v in, -39.5v reg out ** -52.1v / 51.3v :(

His regulated 39.4v is NOT regulated, but running at 51 volts..... Get a new Q20, 2sb536 or replacement !!!!
Since Q25 is putting out 13.5v, I have to assume that D14 is ok, probably Q21 and Q23 as well.

I notice that Q21 is a 2sc945, so we have to be extra careful to locate the base of THAT transistor.!!
IF it is KSC945 = eBc but if it is KSC945C then = eCb

MIKE: WHAT is Q21 marked with on the parts number ON the component?



I just caught up with all of this.

Q21 was replaced with a KSC2383
Q21.JPG


I pulled Q20 and attached a picture. I put the old 536 back in and got the same readings but maybe I am not doing it right. BTW, with the orig 536 back in I still do not have "The Click"
Q21.JPG
 
We are not using "the click" as the ultimate arbitration of success. We CANNOT. We have to "line things up" for success. Every thread does.

We are JUST seeking a good set of voltage readings for the installed Q20. Like around -40 volts on the emitter of Q20, with ~ -51 volts on the collector.

When I speak of regulated voltages, they are allowed to be up to 5 % lower or 5% higher and still be correct.
UNregulated voltages can have even more leeway, perhaps 15%

And, I made a mistake!! I talked about Q21 (2sc945, ksc2383) when I SHOULD have talked about Q22 and (2sa904 and ???ksa1013??? )

We know q21 is good, because the regulated ~ +40v is good. (~ means about, like +39.5v)

You need to LEARN this procedure, there are EXPLICIT instructions on post #11 as to how to do the tests and the results to expect.
NOW REMEMBER that just because a transistor passes all 6 tests for it's polarity that it still can be bad, while those 6 tests are good.
The test is called "a six way diode test on a transistor". in this thread ESPECIALLY post# 11 !!!!!
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/bipolar-junction-transistor-testing-basics.43186/


Before learning that six way diode test, take and post SIX voltage readings for the -40v regulator which is three (c,b & e) for Q20 and three (c, b & e) for Q22.
The -40v regulator is a mirror regulator, it will mirror the +40v regulator's output.
Thus if the +40v regulator was NOT working we would have to fix it first. It is working so the -40v regulator is next in line for attention.
 
Getting the regulator voltages right is definitely a higher priority than anything else! The out of spec negative rail could be causing all sorts of problems downstream!


Mike PM'd me yesterday morning around noon, and I did not see the thread until today, where I also got two PM responses -
I thought I did something that I apparently didn't DO during my first, 9 PM reply to him:
so, here it is: I only do PUBLIC help (like this in the forum) but NOT PRIVATE HELP, as no none else benefits from it.

At 8 am today he answered the 9pm long post I did that consolidated a lot of SX-780 advice,
and nothing showed wrong. but he hadn't taken voltage readings of the main power supplies.
He did force a relay pull-in by grounding Q26's collector. It did pull in.
His kit seller was Eastwood / peace.love.and.music so he's got good parts and the right ones.

He then answered with a second message 30 minutes later, with the power supply voltages:


q20 2sb536 -53v in, -39.5v reg out ** -52.1v / 51.3v :(

His regulated 39.4v is NOT regulated, but running at 51 volts..... Get a new Q20, 2sb536 or replacement !!!!
Since Q25 is putting out 13.5v, I have to assume that D14 is ok, probably Q21 and Q23 as well.

I notice that Q21 is a 2sc945, so we have to be extra careful to locate the base of THAT transistor.!!
IF it is KSC945 = eBc but if it is KSC945C then = eCb

MIKE: WHAT is Q21 marked with on the parts number ON the component?



I just caught up with all of this.
Mike PM'd me yesterday morning around noon, and I did not see the thread until today, where I also got two PM responses -
I thought I did something that I apparently didn't DO during my first, 9 PM reply to him:
so, here it is: I only do PUBLIC help (like this in the forum) but NOT PRIVATE HELP, as no none else benefits from it.

At 8 am today he answered the 9pm long post I did that consolidated a lot of SX-780 advice,
and nothing showed wrong. but he hadn't taken voltage readings of the main power supplies.
He did force a relay pull-in by grounding Q26's collector. It did pull in.
His kit seller was Eastwood / peace.love.and.music so he's got good parts and the right ones.

He then answered with a second message 30 minutes later, with the power supply voltages:


q20 2sb536 -53v in, -39.5v reg out ** -52.1v / 51.3v :(

His regulated 39.4v is NOT regulated, but running at 51 volts..... Get a new Q20, 2sb536 or replacement !!!!
Since Q25 is putting out 13.5v, I have to assume that D14 is ok, probably Q21 and Q23 as well.

I notice that Q21 is a 2sc945, so we have to be extra careful to locate the base of THAT transistor.!!
IF it is KSC945 = eBc but if it is KSC945C then = eCb

MIKE: WHAT is Q21 marked with on the parts number ON the component?



I just caught up with all of this.
 
Hey Guys,

I am going to work on this but I must embarrassingly admit, I am a total Noob when it comes to this sort of electronics. I am doing my best but find myself getting somewhat lost.
Mike
 
I removed and tested my C945 (Q21)

black lead to base, red lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
black lead to base, red lead to emitter, result = OL = No conduction
red lead to base, black lead to collector, result = 697
red lead to base, black lead to emitter, result = 700
black lead to emitter, red lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
red lead to emitter, black lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
 
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I removed and tested my C945 (Q21)

black lead to base, red lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
black lead to base, red lead to emitter, result = OL = No conduction
red lead to base, black lead to collector, result = 697
red lead to base, black lead to emitter, result = 700
black lead to emitter, red lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
red lead to emitter, black lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction

congratulations, :D a successfully executed 6 way diode test. you are on your way.
As I said before, q21 is part of the +40v regulator which is operating correctly,
so kudos to you for grabbing a known good one, with known good pinout to learn from.

I would REALLY like:
take and post SIX voltage readings for the -40v regulator which is three (c,b & e) for Q20 and three (c, b & e) for Q22.

You take the voltage readings as directed, we'll do the head scratching....

Read with the DMM's red probe, connect the black probe to a bare metal chassis ground.
INSULATE YOUR RED PROBE, ALL THE WAY TO THE TIP, WITH TAPE - AND LEAVE THE TINIEST PART YOU CAN TO TAKE READINGS WITH (right at the tip).
The idea is - when the probe slips (we ALL slip:confused:, we look at the meter reading... and .... oops!!)
nothing gets short circuited.
 
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congratulations, a successfully executed 6 way diode test. you are on your way.
As I said before, q21 is part of the +40v regulator which is operating correctly,
so kudos to you for grabbing a known good one, with known good pinout to learn from.

I would REALLY like:


You take the voltage readings as directed, we'll do the head scratching....

Read with the DMM's red probe, connect the black probe to a bare metal chassis ground.
INSULATE YOUR RED PROBE, ALL THE WAY TO THE TIP, WITH TAPE - AND LEAVE THE TINIEST PART YOU CAN TO TAKE READINGS WITH (right at the tip).
The idea is - when the probe slips (we ALL slip, we look at the meter reading... and .... oops!!)
nothing gets short circuited.
Super dumb question, measure with power on - yes?

Man I feel like such a beginner, I guess I am on this stuff LOL
 
take and post SIX voltage readings for the -40v regulator which is three (c,b & e) for Q20 and three (c, b & e) for Q22.

Q20 - 2SB536

B: -51.5v (-40.1v)
C: -51.7v (-53.4v)
E: -51.0v (-39.5v)


Q22 - 904A / KSA1013

B: -6.2v (-0.6v)
C: -51.6v (-40.1v)
E: 0v (0v)
 
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