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System Advice--recommendations for next upgrade?

R. Mallow

R. Mallow

New Member
Hi all,

I'm hoping this ends up in the right forum. I'm a frequent reader on AK, but I almost never post because I am not very knowledgeable from a technical standpoint and much less knowledgeable than others from the standpoint of sampling a lot of different gear. I love my current gear, but have the upgrade bug--due in part to a budding interest in electronics repair/refurbishing and because I finally have the time to tinker a bit. So, with that in mind, I humbly come to you with the request that you might make suggestions about where to go with my next system upgrade.

I recognize that knowing someone's budget is a big part of recommendations--I can say that within the next 6 months I should have much more funds available (grad school finished at long last). I'm interested in short- and long-term suggestions as well so that I can either strike gold on estate sales, craigslist, etc. or just save up to buy something. My thinking is this: if there's only a tiny margin of benefit from spending, say, $500, whereas there's some quantum leap in quality at a certain price point, I'd rather wait and save my pennies for that quantum leap. On the flip side, if there's no quantum leap, improving the system incrementally may be preferable.

Here's my current set up:

Turntable:
Sanyo tp825d--it should be noted that i made the rookie mistake buying a TT on ebay, and it arrived without a counterweight or headshell, so it is currently running with those parts non-stock. Seems to work well, but I have very little basis for comparison related to turntables within my current setup.
Cartridge:
Shure M91ED
Stylus:
EVG clone
Preamp:
Advent 300
Amp:
Hafler DH200
Speakers:
KLH Model 17 with an Aperion S10 subwoofer to fill out the low end slightly

As far as connections go, I have the preamp connected to the amp with RCAs and am using high level in/out from amp to sub to speakers. I'm also currently playing around with makeshift stands to get an ideal speaker height and will then be making my own.

If it's helpful, I listen to a 50/50 mix of vinyl and digital music. If I had to choose which to optimize, I'd probably prefer vinyl. I don't particularly care about using the system for movies, just music.

Thanks in advance for suggestions, everyone.
 
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You didn't mention the type of cables yer using, but, if its just the basic RCAs, you may want to consider an upgrade to Blue Jeans Cables, RCAs, and even their speaker cables.
BJCs are about the best for the price, available, and yer sure to hear the difference.
They are professional sounding cables at an excellent price.
I haven't heard a lot of different components, so other members may be more experienced in that regard. I do have some great equipment tho, and its all vintage stuff.
I get a fantastic sound-stage and very realistic instruments and vocals, and I've only spent about $3800 CAD total. If yer in the US, you could take at least a grand off of that.
Good luck, and welcome to the forum.

Dave
 
Honestly, I'd want to upgrade all of it. The TT might be a good place to begin, but will only improve your vinyl playback, whereas replacing speakers or amps could improve every source. Replacing amps before replacing the speaker leaves you locked in to speakers the amp is capable of driving well. However, my experience has been that one can do a lot better than an Advent 300 as a preamp. I have no experience with that model Hafler, though.

If you consider vinyl your best and primary source, then TT and cartridge may be the best place to begin, especially considering your use of non-standard TT parts.

I'm a dead Thorens TP-16x series fan - started to write a die-hard fan, but since I no longer have or use ye olden LP records, I guess I died. Hard. Still breathing and listening to good music, regardless.
 
I guess one has two basic choices. Off the shelve, be it new or second hand and custom made which can give you a few choices to suit your taste, wants and needs.
Then, of course, there is always the $ question. I strongly believe that once you go over a certain $ value, the more expensive really are not that much better than the middle of the range prices. Sure, the so-called high-end pieces have a lot of bling and use some 'exotic' parts, but will all that really make them sound that much better? in my experience no. A lot is what I call 'wishful hearing'....if I spent a ton of $ I WANT that gear to sound better :confused:
 
Frank Sol said:
Many ways to 'skin a cat'

My advice to younger people entering higher-end audio is... find the speakers you like from top to bottom by auditioning - spend as much as you can afford - even a little more :) - then begin to match the downstream units later
Click to expand...
^^ This. Advice I wish I had listened to in the beginning. Speakers first. No amount of equipment is going to make bad speakers sound good. Then I would look at getting a better turntable and cartridge. If your goi g with seperates, next would be your preamp or preamp section of an Integrated amplifier. That should set the overall tone of your system. When it comes to a good power amplifier it really shouldn't color the music. Its job is to amplify the signal given to it, nothing more. So, speakers, source, them fiddle with the middle bits. I'll second getting Blue Jean's cables as well.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with the last few posts regarding getting your speakers first. I started with my Kef 107s and then added the Thorens TD160. I just used an old receiver to listen for the first while, which gave me lots of time to pick and choose the middle components.

And you can make any system sound so good by shifting the speakers around, and testing toe-in, till you find a sweet spot. And stick a few cushions in the corners, and up the walls, at the the first and second reflection points; and behind you. Pulls the sound-stage right out; wide and forward (usually).

Another cheap sound-stage exciter, is to NOT put anything between the speakers. Makes the sound bloom, and makes the instruments sound separate, and detailed. These tweaks are all free. Oh yeah, and a bit of home-made isolation for the components that you get. It's hard to vibrate, and produce great electronic signals at the same time.
Just some thots. Good luck.

Dave
 
@Frank Sol
Yeah, cool. And I was even using half tennis balls at first.
Now, I've upgraded to double-yellow-dot squash balls. Lol. I'm so cheap!
I also have well-placed bamboo cutting boards, and some 1/8" sheet Sorbothane, stuck on the uneven surfaces. (CD transport, and on the amp bottom between the vents)

Dave
 
I cannot argue with the Hafler, but you are limiting your dynamic range with KLH speakers. Advent wouldn't be on my list either. And certainly you can choose a modern cartridge, where you are not having to deal with an after market stylus.
 
Agree with the recommendations to upgrade your speakers first. Buying used and being patient to buy wisely, you can get speakers that are quite good for $500 and if you have some margin to go up if a really good deal comes along, then that's even better.

The preamp/amp will make a difference to some extent, but I think what you're using now is a great start. You have 100W on the Hafler and that's going to be okay for most speakers unless you like to go really loud. Your KLH 17's, even with sub, are what I think are holding you back. Start with upgrading your speakers and then save more $ for the next upgrade.

You should post your location and network with local AK'ers in your area. Most have excess gear and may be willing to bring some over for you to hear or sell something to you at some point. It's also just a lot of fun to get together with like minded audio hobbyists in your area anyway.
 
The Advent 300/Hafler DH-200 is a very fine set of electronics. It would be one of the last things changed if I had that system. Heck I still have two of the three Haflers I bought back in 1980, swapping the other one for a pair of tube amps. The Hafler can be upgraded with Musical Concepts parts or work they do if you want to go that route. But something like some really nice speakers would be a great move. Dahlquist DQ-10s all refreshed sound nice with the Hafler as do a number of other damn fine speakers.

The table is an early 70s less expensive model and with non-stock parts, it might be beneficial to upgrade to a late 70s unit of known quality and then as you go further, step up the cartridge to a great MM or some of the MC carts available.

A few hundred on speakers, I've bought DQ-10s for a couple bills, needing stands or needing a recap but they are in great shape now with a bit of work, remember big speakers, no one wants those so look around and when you see something... You can find a sweet table for a couple/few bills.

But with your budget, maybe get one and wait a couple weeks and get another upgrade and sell off the pieces that were displaced to make funds for more.
 
I would keep the Hafler and Advent and build around it.

First update the source. Look in Barter Town or Craigslist for a better turntable. The M91 is fine and there are better aftermarket stylus for it … a direct from Jico hyper elliptical would be a big upgrade over the EVG, so would the LP Gear Vivild Line stylus.

Next the speakers. Your speakers most likely need to have the crossover restored/re-capped, that is s low cost upgrade you can DIY. After that you can take more time and look for better.

The Hafler amp is a great foundation. Get the Musical Concepts board upgrade and the -200 Power Supply and ypu essentially have a new amp that will compete with modern amps costing several thousands. I have one and I have auditioned it with some very expensive amps and it does well.

The Advent preamp - the preamp and phono stage in this unit are very good. Send this to AK member "Patfont", he has been restoring these units for awhile. You will come out with a fresh like new piece.

I might go in this order: Stylus, Crossovers, Turntable, Speakers, Preamp and Amp.

Of course if great deals pop up you have to strike so that could change things.
 
I would change out the speakers first. Next I would be looking for a different amp and preamp for your system. Cabling should be the last on your list of upgrades.
 
If he's using the RCA cables that came with the components, then the extremely inexpensive upgrade to BJC cables should be the first thing he changes. Connecting any new piece of gear with $2 cables is a waste of time.

Dave
 
Hey all,

Thank you for your great input! And apologies for my slow reply here--unexpected bedlam at the clinic where I'm working, so I've been running on fumes for a few days.

david1111 said:
You didn't mention the type of cables yer using
Click to expand...
Dave--I am using plain jane RCA cables, so BJC is definitely something I'll look into. Sounds like that's a cheap, easy way to improve sound quality and will scale with future upgrades. I'll also have to check out some vibration insulation--though I suspect the way things are currently positioned, they're not facing too much movement. Still, an interesting area to explore.

musichal said:
Honestly, I'd want to upgrade all of it. The TT might be a good place to begin, but will only improve your vinyl playback, whereas replacing speakers or amps could improve every source. Replacing amps before replacing the speaker leaves you locked in to speakers the amp is capable of driving well. However, my experience has been that one can do a lot better than an Advent 300 as a preamp. I have no experience with that model Hafler, though.

If you consider vinyl your best and primary source, then TT and cartridge may be the best place to begin, especially considering your use of non-standard TT parts.

I'm a dead Thorens TP-16x series fan - started to write a die-hard fan, but since I no longer have or use ye olden LP records, I guess I died. Hard. Still breathing and listening to good music, regardless.
Click to expand...

Musichal--I think you're right to replace it all in as far as it's a beginner system. I went through what I guess I'd refer to as a hippie phase (read: crippling drug problem) and then finally went back to school (which meant taking out loans), so for the last 10 years funds have been pretty tight. I put this system together on about $200 in total. So, basically, it's now the time to move towards a "real" system.

My sense is that speakers and pre/amp would definitely give me the most improvement, but I'm reluctant to upgrade my speakers until I know the room I'll be using (move in my near future). That said, a couple of pairs of Acoustats went up for sale not long ago (early Model 3's and Spectra 22's), which I've been keeping a close eye on to see if they come down in price. If I could get the Model 3's for $500, I'd have to jump on them regardless of the room, I think, which likely has bearing on in terms of similar speakers (though I know magnepans aren't electrostatic):
sqlsavior said:
If you have the room to place them four feet out from the wall behind them, your next step is obvious, IMO.
Click to expand...


Thank you to everyone who posted--even if not quoted (for efficient replying), I read 'em all and appreciate all of the perspectives.

So, based on everybody's non-shitty RCA input (huhuhuh), my take is probably this:

1. Buy some BJCs
2. Play around with dampening
3. Keep my eyes peeled for a good turntable.
4. As soon as I know the room I'll be set up in, go for speakers.
5. Look for pre-amps (also desirable cause I'd love to keep the advent as a bedroom system) and either a new amps or upgrade the hafler.

re: turntables:
would love to get a hold of an ar xb or es1 (i have an intention tremor which would make an xa difficult for me), thorens (probably could only justify a td150 unless a really good deal came up).
re: speakers:
have my eye on (early, blue medallion) acoustat model 3's and spectra 22's that are up for sale locally. notably, the model 3's are completely mint--original boxes etc. have also heard wonderful things of the meadlowlark kestral hotrods, which i haven't had a chance to hear but will be investigating.

for pre-amps (this down the line more so), i've thought about capitalizing on some of the older mcintosh AV stuff (e.g., c39) or 2-ch pre (e.g., c28, maybe c29 or c32 if i could find then for a deal) just to dip my toes in the water and see if i really like the mac sound (so far I do, have heard them a few times but never in a setting where i can really put them to my own litmus test). have also loved audio research preamps (i forget the model numbers) based on my admittedly limited experience).
 
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