iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
I do not believe for one minute that you don't have at least one item in your house that is made in China.
Teac TN-300 just say no?
- Thread starter lico
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I do not believe for one minute that you don't have at least one item in your house that is made in China.
iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
I will only remind regarding the above.... the actual terminology on the spec is LESS THAN 0.2% --- which means 0.2% is (hopefully) the worst case scenario --- most of the time it will be well below 0.2%.
To ODP, I and most of us respect you and what you have to say, though I am confused on what direction you lean. But to answer your last post, I find the bullying come from the vintage table fanatics, not the folks looking at new tables. When a noob comes on here and asks which turntable is the best, I always say " Go Audition" . Specs are not the entire story unfortunately. I do understand there are many people that do hear W&F of around .15, but I do not. As to Julian Hirsch and his labs and test, specs where included for sure, but not once did I see him saying not to buy a piece of gear. rarely did he ever put something down. Most of the reviews were of how great this piece or that piece is. Now, advertising dollars in magazine is big. Put down a new Pioneer turntable, and you could lose millions. So would you fully trust a magazine to make a purchase of gear? It's risky, but listen to the gear, and decide for ones self. And majick, seriously, not one item made in China?
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DustyOldPile
Vinyl Goddess
Here's two examples of bullying just since my last post:
"Why don't you guys give it a break, sit down and listen to some music, if you know how."
"I like your passion but no one is going to ban you because no one cares."
I used to love coming to AK because it was full of others like myself. Apparently that is no longer the case, it's a crapfest like most of the other audio boards. Anyone who remembers what things used to be like is at LEAST 50 years old now, so I suppose we're a dying breed.
Farewell, AK. I don't know if the right place for people interested in high fidelity reproduction exists anymore, but I'm off to go find it. Enjoy your pitiful, portable picnic players
"Why don't you guys give it a break, sit down and listen to some music, if you know how."
"I like your passion but no one is going to ban you because no one cares."
I used to love coming to AK because it was full of others like myself. Apparently that is no longer the case, it's a crapfest like most of the other audio boards. Anyone who remembers what things used to be like is at LEAST 50 years old now, so I suppose we're a dying breed.
Farewell, AK. I don't know if the right place for people interested in high fidelity reproduction exists anymore, but I'm off to go find it. Enjoy your pitiful, portable picnic players
Garven
Active Member
Exactly. I think the manufacturers are sort of hedging their bets in case some units don't test out as well as others. Pioneer has now revised their PLX-1000 spec to match the SL-1200's 0.01% measured
Folks who test their rigs frequently get much better results, as you pointed out. When I tested my PLX-1000, I averaged around +/- 0.015%-0.02%. Michael Fremer in his review of the AT-LP120 got +/- 0.02% and in his review of the Onkyo CP-1050 +0.01%/- 0.02%. Herb Reichert tested a PLX-1000 using the same app as Fremer and got +0.03%/- 0.01%.
Of course to those who don't want to believe or support these products, it won't matter. If someone has some aversion to products made in China for whatever reasons, all this won't matter. If someone's a died-in-wool SL-1200 fanboy, it won't matter. If they're a Rega fanboy, a VPI fanboy, or whatever brand, it won't matter. Etc. Etc.
However, folks miss the obvious here. Take my situation. I wanted a turntable that had a removable headshell and adjustable tonearm height, preferably on-the fly. I did not want to buy used. What were my options? Either I spend at least $3k or more for something that may perform better on paper but not necessarily actually sound better, or I spend $1k (Canadian dollars) for a Pioneer. If I didn't want the adjustable tonearm height, I would have easily gone for the Teac, a Pioneer PL-30-K, or a Denon DP300F. Do these tables match or outperform similar units built in 1975 or 1980? Maybe not. It's not 1975. It's not 1980. Do they perform better than similarly priced units from Pro-Ject, Rega, VPI? Perhaps. Perhaps not. All I know is I'm happy with my choice. I know others online who are happy with theirs. I see people on here who've actually chosen the Teac and are happy with their choice.
What I don't understand is why those who chose other routes feel it so necessary to constantly harp and threadcrap on products they have no intention of buying or trying. If they're so happy with the hear they've chosen, why aren't they spending more time listening to their gear instead of spreading all the "bah humbug" here?
Garven
Active Member
The rest of your message wasn't bad but you completely undermined it with this final statement. This kind of judgmental, "holier than thou" postering just turns people off to whatever you might be trying to say. So probably better if you are off to some other spot.
Oh, I remember long past 50 years ago. To use your words, "old lady", you are not the only lady of age here. There is no problem with age and no problem with you liking what you like. You just have to also be respectful of what others like, whether you agree or not.
Measurements are nice to have but do not guarantee any sort of ecstatic pleasure. I have some antique audio gear that I am sure falls quite short of audiophile quality but it brings back clearly the old radios of my youth, long before TVs came into our home. As such they bring me great pleasure. You can buy a car based on performance specs, and it might zip you around in no time at all, but it might not be an enjoyable ride on a long term commute, etc. Each to their own.
I will give you one more note - do not comment on moderation in the forums; you can comment via the messaging system, email or complain to the admins if you like, just do not make a moderation discussion out here in public. That will terminate quickly.
As stated earlier, if there are other sites that you prefer, please frequent them and desist from ruffling feathers here. Please allow the members here to peacefully discuss their likes and dislikes. No need for grumps - it is Christmas season after all.
Looks like my comments have rubbed a few members and management the wrong way. Unless it's something I own or related to it I'll no longer comment, just keeping my comments to vintage audio gear. Times have changed at AK and I now realize I'm vastly outnumbered and way out of step with the growing number of members that have no knowledge, interest or appreciation for vintage audio gear. To continue on and argue my point of view would be futile on deaf ears.
With respect, you loft yourself up to be the pinnacle of knowledge with perfect hearing from where you can laud your snotty remarks and judge all the other deaf, and clueless audio wannabees. What gives you the right to judge others with the snotty comments of your last sentence?
Wake up and open your mind to new and intriguing opportunities. We are all equal. If you cannot escape the closeted views of yourself and the equipment you worship, then better to not comment.
My statement was not bullying in the least. Again, no one will ban you for having an opinion. If anything you seem to not want to engage in discussions that are views opposed to yours and chastise people who enjoy products that I'd bet you haven't even tried.
I suppose if it's too much for you to handle and you must leave then...goodbye!!
illini
The Past is Alive
What did the manufacturer do to improve the W&F specification?
What's your opinion on the rumble and torque specifications?
Garven
Active Member
I'm not sure if they did anything or if they just decided to express the spec differently. I have heard that they changed the tonearm from earlier production runs, resolved a problem with a faulty diode, and started including better interconnects, so perhaps they did do something to improve the drive. On the other hand, they're expressing the W&F the same way Reloop does with their RP-8000 and Technics did with the SL-1200, by publishing the spec as measured from the frequency generator output, which does not take into account real world conditions such as stylus drag, etc.
As someone who has only owned belt drives, I'm delighted to have a turntable that sstarts fast, doesn't slip when startign with a 200g vinyl on the platter, etc. As for rumble, my two Pro-Jects had a -70dB rumble spec but with their noisy motors, I measured it at around -30dB. My new Pioneer also has a -70dB rumble spec, and my initial measurements show it to be -68 to -70dB, so needless to say I'm a happy camper!
91r100gs
Lunatic Member
IMO entry level TT's today are the equal of the $100-150 entry level TT's of the vintage era. Before I bought my current TT's, I had a Technics SL-L25 LT and a Music Hall 2.2 that were very similar in SQ, and liked comparing them. The Technics was brighter (AT cart) and the Music Hall was more neutral with slightly tighter, deeper bass, and a bit of a darker background. Both also had no motor noise to speak of, the Technics had a slight amount of audible non-amplified noise, pass given for age. Neither had audible W&F, hum, or other odd noises.
Over their lives in my systems, both received a upgrade stylus, and both were capable of passing the improvement through to the system. They were also good enough to get me to go further down the rabbit hole, of this crazy hobby of vinyl.
IME - i'd say it's a draw. YMMV - remember, its a hobby -
Over their lives in my systems, both received a upgrade stylus, and both were capable of passing the improvement through to the system. They were also good enough to get me to go further down the rabbit hole, of this crazy hobby of vinyl.
IME - i'd say it's a draw. YMMV - remember, its a hobby -
iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
Re. bolded, that may be --- and that's ok. People don't have to conform to your way of thinking. That's the beauty of this place. It's okay if/when people disagree. However, to argue your point to the point of being obnoxious is going to turn people off. Certainly, you can have your opinion...but you are not the do-all, end-all authority. And because others don't agree with you IN NO WAY means they have no knowledge or interest or appreciation of vintage gear. Vintage gear is not the only option.....it is ONE OF THE OPTIONS. If you like vintage gear, great....no one is holding that against you. But when you try to shove vintage down everyone's throats, that WILL be held against you.
iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
I wish I had faith in vintage gear but I'd have to know the person personally and have a good listen. I've bought a few vintage tables over the years and I'm tired of being stranded or left with expensive parts to replace.
Fact of the matter is that a lot of the old revered stuff from the 70s and 80s are seeing their last days. Prices have skyrocketed and durability is becoming a question. I love my Dual 1218, as I did my Thorens, as I did my Technics, but now I'd like to try new and go the budget route.
I have a feeling we'll see more quality stuff pop up at proper prices. Till then, some of us will be rocking away with the Teacs, Pioneers, Pro-jets, Regas, Audio Technica, etc. and enjoying it!
Fact of the matter is that a lot of the old revered stuff from the 70s and 80s are seeing their last days. Prices have skyrocketed and durability is becoming a question. I love my Dual 1218, as I did my Thorens, as I did my Technics, but now I'd like to try new and go the budget route.
I have a feeling we'll see more quality stuff pop up at proper prices. Till then, some of us will be rocking away with the Teacs, Pioneers, Pro-jets, Regas, Audio Technica, etc. and enjoying it!
mhainz
Well-Known Member
Wow. This threads still going. I always thought this forum was about audio and the enjoyment we get from it. I never realised it was only for "hi-fidelity" connoisseurs and high end equipment. At the end of the day I couldn't care less what people were using to enjoy their music. Even if they want to use a Crosley, then so be it. After all, it's not MY records they're apparently ruining.
Ouch!
Ouch!
I tend to agree with this, to the point of selling all except the Clearaudio and buying another one for my second system. Not budget, but the sale of the Linn, Garrard and other decks should help.
As to new budget, my research tells me the Reloop and other DJ Hanpin-made decks are worth looking at. They are cheaper, built like battleships and have better specs that their other famous name clones.
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