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Teaser Pics -- Fisher SA-100 clone in progress

Oh yeah, I bet they are high quality though.:yes:
If I send you a PM with my email address could you send them as an attachment
to me, emails have a much larger limit to size of files you can receive.
 
Hi Dave!

If you could send them to me via email (interested in full size too) , I think I have some scanner software I could shrink them with and try and post them.

Maybe they would take them for the AK data base?

Regards!

Randy
 
:tresbon:
Some guys have the hots for Dave's schematic! :smlove:

Well, all I can say is that some people have good taste and appreciate quality.
 
I would really like to get them posted here first before using email as a general form of distribution. That will let me close out this thread, and start up a new thread on the Fisher forum detailing the installation of EFB II in the donor SA-100 I was sent. After that, I have no issue at all emailing the original full sized files to any who might want them.

Shadow -- If you do in fact have the ability to shrink these suckers down so the forum will accept them, please send me a PM if you would not mind taking the task on.

I really appreciate all the advice/effort extended to help me with this issue. Computers. Is it any wonder why I stick with old school?

Dave
 
Well, I tried anyway. As suggested, I took the schematics in and had them commercially scanned to a thumb drive, but the resulting files still exceeded forum upload capabilities. Each file was some 1.3 MB.

I am hardly clear on such matters, but it would appear that the size of paper I used (11x17) could at least be some of the problem (?). Guess I learned my lesson on that one!

Dave

Dave - mail 'em to me (I'll send you my email address via PM) and I'll post high-res copies on Flickr and then link them to AK.

-D
 
What an excellent thread :thmbsp:

Dave, your work sets the standard. That amp is a masterpiece - hope to aspire to those heights someday.
 
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OK. Maybe this time it works. I am told that this is the best it will get for this application. But first I've got to give a shout out to Staples, who after trying numerous times, was able to finally use Photo Shop to reduce the resolution down to the highest possible resolution that the forum would still accept -- and all for no more than the original $0.25 per page they charged me for the original scanning service. While it is still hardly ideal, it is certainly better than the original pics I posted, and converys enough information to provide an understanding of circuit action. In the future, I will certainly use bigger print, so as to prevents these problems from happening again.

With that, I will close out this thread other than for any discussion regarding this project, and invite you to follow along over on the Fisher Forum with a new thread I have started there, documenting the installation of EFB II in a stock Fisher SA-100. You can find that thread here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=476431

Dave

I should add that there was an error I caught on the schematic after first posting it, and some text I changed for clarity. Please accept these as the accurate version.
 

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That works Dave,

When downloaded it can be blown up to read it, (at least I can)..

Thanks for the trouble, :)
 
Good grief, I've been living under a rock! This is the first I've seen of this thread... :sigh:

Dave, thank you for sharing here. This is really wonderful.
 
Good friends come to your aid without even having to be asked for help. Such was the case with George, who is a good EE friend of mine who lives north of the border, and out of the blue offered to draw up an electronic schematic of my Fisher SA-100 clone, with greater detail, and now, more information than my original schematics provided. Like all of his work, the schematics he drew are superb, so I am posting them here as well for any and all to use for their non-commercial personal enjoyment. Friends like George reinforce the old adage of life being so much easier because of who you know!

Dave
 

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Hey Dave couple questions about the schem if I may.

First on the bottom left it says:
(R)
L = 2.7k
R = 1.5k

(C)
L = 150pf
R = 180pf

Is that the values you used for "each" respective channel?
(I'm assuming it is and you did it there rather then fbk loop)

-------------------------------------------------------------

Second, the biasing of the output tubes.

The cathode has +15v coming from the LM337? an it's adjustable?
what is that basic range of the adjustable voltage provided there?

The grid of the output tubes also has adjustable positive voltage?
what is the basic range of the that adjustable voltage it provides?

The screen of the output tubes also has adjustable suply voltage?
what is the basic range of the that adjustable voltage it provides?
 
Keg -- You absolutely did offer your help -- and quite quickly, too. I hardly want that to go unnoticed!

This is ALL about my ignorance of computers and what can be done with them schematic wise. I surely did not equate your offer to clean up my schematic with the idea of starting from scratch and electronically drawing a new one as was done here. Clearly you have the same capability, and had the same intentions, but my lack of understanding simply could not connect the dots for me regarding the process. I offer my sincere apology!!

Your understanding is correct for the component values I used in the step networks. Getting ready for dinner now -- will answer the other Qs afterwards.

Dave
 
I was just teasing you Dave.. :)
I took no offense, but yes I was offering to redraw what you had laid out.

Take your time, I'm no hurry for the rest of my questions here on this setup.
 
Keg -- The range of the various controls is as follows:

1. The cathode regulator has an adjustment range of about 5 volts, within the range of ~ 14 to 19 vdc as measured at point D. This voltage is adjusted by the EFB range control. Its setting is ultimately determined by the general bias voltage required by the particular output tubes used so that the bias controls themselves are adequately centered within their range when the correct quiescent bias is achieved for all four tubes. This set up is quite flexible, as to date I have not found any tubes that could not be properly bias with this design.

You may recognize that the circuit surrounding the 337 device is nearly identical to that which I originally published for the small Dynaco amplifiers a few years ago. Understand that the 337 circuit and associated adjustable positive bias controls were only necessary in my clone version, as the Fisher power transformer I used (from an X-101 ST) did not offer a convenient tap to facilitate a conventional negative bias supply. Therefore, the EFB cathode regulator version was used, with its attendant positive bias controls to effect an accurate setting. It also nicely chewed up a bit of excessive B+ I had as well.

In the actual Fisher SA-100 that I'm working on in a Fisher thread, traditional fixed bias is already employed, so an EFB supply regulator will be used instead -- also triggered off the screen circuit as the EFB cathode regulator is here. It will effect the same "Enhanced" action as the EFB cathode regulator does in my clone circuit, but does so by adjusting the negative bias voltage to the grids, rather than the positive voltage applied to the cathodes as done here.

2. The adjustment range of the bias controls is about 1.7 vdc, between a range of ~ 1.5 to 3.2 vdc. Looking at the voltages on the schematic then, with the cathodes at 15.25 vdc positive, and the grids at 1.4 volts positive, that has the tubes effectively operating with about 13.8 vdc of bias. With an effective 324 vdc applied to the screen, this 13.8 volts of effective bias allows the particular Gold Lion reissue tubes I am using to draw about 25 ma of quiescent current each.

3. The screen voltage control has an adjustment range of about 50 volts, within a range from about 310 to 360 vdc. Please remember that this project started life as a development mule, so the screen voltage was made adjustable to help verify certain performance characteristics.

In the end, the output stage basically operates under the same parameters outlined by RCA for 7189 tubes when delivering 24 watts (plate) power output. This requires 400 volts plate and 300 volts screen voltage -- or a screen voltage that is 75% of the plate voltage.

In my design, the quiescent plate B+ is effectively 432 volts, while the screens effectively operate at 324 volts. Note that this too is exactly a 75% relationship -- a relationship which is maintained throughout the full power range even though the main B+ sages some 50 volts from quiescent to full power output in both channels.

At full sustained power in both channels, the main B+ drops to 395 vdc, and the cathode voltage drops to ~ 13.5 vdc due to the Enhanced portion of EFB. This produces an effective plate voltage of ~ 382 vdc, and an effective screen voltage of ~ 287 vdc -- or again almost exactly 75% of the plate voltage.

Finally, note that a 50 volt drop in B+ means that the amplifier is operating on something over 88% of the original B+ value at full power output. Note too that at 13.5 volts on the cathodes under full power conditions, this is also an 88% drop in bias voltage from that applied under quiescent conditions.

In this way the complete operating parameters of the output stage are "slid" up and down as the main B+ is altered, but retain their original relationships in doing so as established under quiescent conditions. This is the very heart of what the Enhanced portion of EFB is all about.

This is quite unlike traditional installations, where in fixed bias designs the bias voltage virtually does not change at all as power output is elevated, or in resistive cathode bias designs, the bias actually goes up as power is increased. And, in traditional pentode circuits, the screen voltage typically falls quite rapidly with the application of power. With EFB II, because of the additional mosfet circuit, the screen voltage is unaltered by any increase in screen current itself, and is only affected -- always in proper proportion -- by a drop in the main B+ only.

By maintaining the various element relationships regardless of power output and main B+ levels, distortion is held to very low figures throughout the available power range. And, because the screen voltage is generally maintained at a higher level than typical resistive dropping networks allow for, available power output is increased as well.

The results produced by EFB and EFB II differ only in ultimate available power output from that produced by fully regulated voltages for each element. However, since both approaches effectively maintain the quiescent operating point throughout the available power output range, distortion is equally low with both approaches. But other than ultimate power output, both EFB and EFB II achieve virtually the same results otherwise as that of a fully regulated design with only a fraction of the complexity. It really is almost as good as having your cake and eating it too!

Dave
 
Thanks Dave, and I agree about the rest of the benefits, which is why I
was contemplating building a "variation" of this an was curious the range.

I'm thinking of taking an Eico ST-40 and using 6V6, but a lower B+ of say
340-360v and going back to the 7247 since there is only 1 9pin per driver.

So lower B+, a little more current, dropping some gain in preamp sections.
(but also using the tape out as input to just the amp section for choices)

Anyway I like what you did and think the concept should be explored here.
 
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Kegger- I too have an Eico ST40. I've been chatting with Dave about adapting EFBII to the stock ST40 circuit (staying with 7591s and original OPTs).

I'm thinking, that from looking at the datasheet parameters of the 7591, running the ST40 with SS rectifiers (which will result in about 450-460v B+), and with the screens at 75% of the plates (about 335-345v or so), I might wind up with something that may well use the about-8K primary impedance of the ST40 transformers well, in fixed-bias. And, by being able to dial back the idle bias (to, say 30-35ma, akin to how the 7591s are commonly run in Fishers, Sherwoods and such) a bit- knowing it won't go 'Class B' under heavy load- I might be able to sneak a few more watts at 20 Hz out of the transformers (by delaying the onset of saturation)...

I'm guessing, that since 7591s stay pretty "linear" down to lower idle plate current levels than 6L6s or 6V6s, this might be a good way to maximize LF power output from the ST40 transformers...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
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I actually don't think you NEED to raise the B+ voltage even for the 7591..

That is not to say you can't, or that you won't get more power, either way
should work, lower voltage or higher voltage, just depends how much power
you want to try an make, I prefer lower voltage and higher current with the
slight loss of power, but truthfully either is just fine by me.

My "main" reason going to the lower voltage was to use 6V6 tubes verse an
7591 beacuse I have many, there cheap, and sound good, 7591 sounds great
to but I'd like to get away from them and use what I have, the ST-40 outputs
should be excellent for 6V6(or 7591) and I prefer an lower B+ on them as well.
(lower B+ an current for 6V6 diss should play well with an ST-40 output tranny)

But yah I think the ST-40 makes an great candidate to setup Dave's work here.
 
But yes I see where your going with the higher B+ and lower current for the 7591
to try and not saturate the output at low frequencies for the 7591, but I wonder
if trying to squeeze more output from them just puts it back in that same place it
was as yes lower current, but now higher power output, will in not just wash out?

I'm not saying it will, but just asking..
 
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