Technics sl-110 with sme 3009 mk2 or a micro seiki dd-33 with ma 707 ?

[TrevorBarten]

So I recently got these 2 turntables and I got a pretty good deal on both (370 on the technics with arm and 250 on the dd-33). However I am not sure what I should do with them I don't need both but I like them both so I took to this message board hoping that you guys could help me with the choice. Thanks in advance!

 

[stratokaster]

Personally, I think Technics is a better turntable. But at the same time I suspect MA-707 is a better tonearm.

Something to keep in mind:

- both turntables are early 70s pre-quartz designs, but Technics benefits from a much heavier platter which has a very high inertial mass thanks to its huge radius. It's also known to be very reliable.
- the Technics features a removable armboard and can accommodate pretty much any tonearm including most 12-inch models. The Micro is an integrated turntable and you're stuck with the tonearm it comes with.
- SME 3009mk2 can be any of the following models: 3009 S2 (removable headshell), 3009 Series II improved (fixed headshell), 3009 Series II non-improved (removable headshell, 12.5g effective mass). Of those three models, only the non-improved one is really desirable (IMO).
- MA-707 was a near-TOTL model for Micro Seiki and it should be a very, very good tonearm. I have never heard it but bettering classic SMEs sonically is not a difficult task (once again, just my opinion). The variable effective mass is a nifty feature, but headshell availability can be an issue if you like to swap cartridges.

 

[TrevorBarten]

Personally, I think Technics is a better turntable. But at the same time I suspect MA-707 is a better tonearm.

Something to keep in mind:

- both turntables are early 70s pre-quartz designs, but Technics benefits from a much heavier platter which has a very high inertial mass thanks to its huge radius. It's also known to be very reliable.
- the Technics features a removable armboard and can accommodate pretty much any tonearm including most 12-inch models. The Micro is an integrated turntable and you're stuck with the tonearm it comes with.
- SME 3009mk2 can be any of the following models: 3009 S2 (removable headshell), 3009 Series II improved (fixed headshell), 3009 Series II non-improved (removable headshell, 12.5g effective mass). Of those three models, only the non-improved one is really desirable (IMO).
- MA-707 was a near-TOTL model for Micro Seiki and it should be a very, very good tonearm. I have never heard it but bettering classic SMEs sonically is not a difficult task (once again, just my opinion). The variable effective mass is a nifty feature, but headshell availability can be an issue if you like to swap cartridges.

Hi thank you for the reply the sme 3009 is sadly the 3009 Series II improved (fixed headshell) I wanted a sme 3009 with a removable headshell but at 370 I couldn't pass up the combo (the tonearm alone goes for like 350 over here) as for the tonearm being non removable on the micro seiki that is not really a problem as I am not planning on changing it out with anything anyhow. This kinda make the choice harder as I now need to choose between the better turntable or the better arm. Why do you prefer the ma 707 over the sme 3009 ? I don't have that much experience with straight tonearms. I have used a sme 3012 mk2 for years but I never had anything really in the same range to compare it to.

 

[stratokaster]

As I've said, I have never heard MA-707, but I've heard other tonearms made by Micro Seiki (including MA-505, MA-202 and MAX-237) and in my opinion they all are very good arms. I've never been a huge fan of SME 3009 of any variety: yes, they are an iconic design, and they caused quite a stir in their time, but I think that they have been bettered by many mid-range Japanese tonearms. That's just my opinion, of course, I know there are people who swear by early SMEs, and their opinion is just as valid as mine

 

[stratokaster]

But again, as a package, I think SL-110 wins handily, it's just a better overall turntable. But I'm probably biased because it's just happens to be my favourite turntable of all times.

 

[TrevorBarten]

As I've said, I have never heard MA-707, but I've heard other tonearms made by Micro Seiki (including MA-505, MA-202 and MAX-237) and in my opinion they all are very good arms. I've never been a huge fan of SME 3009 of any variety: yes, they are an iconic design, and they caused quite a stir in their time, but I think that they have been bettered by many mid-range Japanese tonearms. That's just my opinion, of course, I know there are people who swear by early SMEs, and their opinion is just as valid as mine

I am not really an expert on tonearms why are the sme series of arms so highly regarded and why do you think that they have been bested by mid range japanese arms?

 

[stratokaster]

I think SME arms are well regarded because they're a design classic and a British hi-fi classic. But fundamentally it's an old design (not saying that it's a bad design!) and SME's attempts to modernise it have been largely unsuccessful, with the Improved S2/Series II arms being almost universally considered inferior to their predecessors.

 

[KRab]

I've not heard the SME tonearm on anything.....but I own DD 33. I love it. The tonearm isn't exactly an MA 707, as there is no VTA, and the cueing system is different. Still a good tonearm, and even better if you have both auxiliary weights. There are replacement head shells available on the auction site. They're not cheap, but they are serviceable and will allow rapid cart replacement. The basic operation of the TT itself is good. The semi auto aspect is something to consider, as it comes in handy when you don't want to babysit the record. Mine holds speed fairly well. I cannot speak as to whether or not the SL 110 is "better".....it may well be. But the Micro Seiki is better looking, IMHO. And aesthetics count for something.... I'd keep them both. One cannot have too many turntables....

 

[Blue Shadow]

A question like this really needs pictures. I'll check back or look em up on the other machine so I can vote like I do for caps to use in recaps, by color, I would want the table to look the business, like a TD-125/SME. But I doubt either of these reach that iconic look for a table.

 

[Dandy]

I disagree that the SME 3009 Imp is inferior. Don't confuse with Series III. (I have the earlier models too.) It was just designed for high compliance carts like the Shure V15 series. I have one, with removable headshell and it sings on my Garrard 401 with the right cart. SMEs are fantastically serviceable and you could even replace the arm tube or you could sell the fixed headshell model and buy the removable one.

So I recommend the Technics/SME. Btw, I see this exact combo on the bay for nearly 1500 UKP.

 

[TrevorBarten]

A question like this really needs pictures. I'll check back or look em up on the other machine so I can vote like I do for caps to use in recaps, by color, I would want the table to look the business, like a TD-125/SME. But I doubt either of these reach that iconic look for a table.

I have a garrard 401 with an sme 3012 that looks pretty similar to a td 125. I'll post some pics as soon as they arrive I bought them both but because of a holiday I will get them this monday

 

[TrevorBarten]

I've not heard the SME tonearm on anything.....but I own DD 33. I love it. The tonearm isn't exactly an MA 707, as there is no VTA, and the cueing system is different. Still a good tonearm, and even better if you have both auxiliary weights. There are replacement head shells available on the auction site. They're not cheap, but they are serviceable and will allow rapid cart replacement. The basic operation of the TT itself is good. The semi auto aspect is something to consider, as it comes in handy when you don't want to babysit the record. Mine holds speed fairly well. I cannot speak as to whether or not the SL 110 is "better".....it may well be. But the Micro Seiki is better looking, IMHO. And aesthetics count for something.... I'd keep them both. One cannot have too many turntables....

From just looking at pictures I can only notice the cueing system being different but I just assumed that was because the arm is integrated into the dd-33 and the ma-707 loose is just a standalone which I am still pretty sure is indeed the case how is the VTA different exactly?

 

[KRab]

On the DD 33, there is no VTA adjustment. You can download the manuals for both the DD3 3 and the MA 707 from Vinyl Engine. Dimensionally they are virtually identical, but there is no provision to adjust VTA on the DD33.

 

[TrevorBarten]

On the DD 33, there is no VTA adjustment. You can download the manuals for both the DD3 3 and the MA 707 from Vinyl Engine. Dimensionally they are virtually identical, but there is no provision to adjust VTA on the DD33.

ah ok that makes sense I am just gonna assume that also has to do with the integrated thing thanks for the heads up though!

 

[Nat]

I think the choice might legitimately rest on which you feel more comfortable with or simply like more. Turntables are interactive devices, and different people respond emotionally to different cues. I love using the SME Series III, but the Series II bothers me simply because the vertical bearings are at an angle to the headshell and it feels funny to me when I use the finger lift. Unimportant, really, but it keeps me from warming up to it, as much as I would like to. And then there is the cartridge alignment process - moving the whole arm is an elegant way to align the cartridge, but it feels clumsy to me.
I haven't used to DD 33 and its arm, but the Micros I've had were lovely in use (though I've seen ones that I did not like).
Unless there is some compelling reason to make a decision quickly, I would suggest using both for a while and seeing which you want to use more.

 

[bimasta]

Though I love Micro Seiki and currently use a Micro Seiki, the Technics may be a wise choice when it comes to service. Every tech knows Technics; MS is obscure.

But both are exceptional, especially at those prices — the arms alone are worth more. I'd keep both for sure, unless I needed the money. You may see no need for 2 turntables, but that can change very quickly in this "hobby" (or whatever it is) as you get into it.

SME 3009mk2 can be any of the following models: 3009 S2 (removable headshell), 3009 Series II improved (fixed headshell), 3009 Series II non-improved (removable headshell, 12.5g effective mass). Of those three models, only the non-improved one is really desirable (IMO).

You do say IMO, Stratokaster, but I couldn't disagree more. Have you owned and used all three models? I have.

The Series II bothers me simply because the vertical bearings are at an angle to the headshell and it feels funny to me when I use the finger lift. Unimportant, really, but it keeps me from warming up to it, as much as I would like to. And then there is the cartridge alignment process - moving the whole arm is an elegant way to align the cartridge, but it feels clumsy to me.

I rarely disagree with Nat. But the sliding baseplate is more than "elegant" — it's the only way to ensure correct offset-angle with precision (to .01°).

 

[Nat]

I'm not arguing the SME method of alignment isn't excellent. I'm just saying that if you change cartridges much at all, it is not an easy way to do it. If you have a fixed headshell arm (of any make), changing cartridges can be a trial, but I find that having both the protractor and the things that have to be moved to do the alignment in relatively the same place is easier for me, rather then looking back and forth from the protractor to the pivot and back again.

 

[TrevorBarten]

Update for anyone that's interested got the first of the 2 players in today the sl 110. It works perfectly fine am not a big fan of the non removable headshell though. I might sell the sme 3009 and swap it out with an epa 110 since I can get one for 60 euros. Will probably get the micro seiki in tomorrow curious to see how it compares to this one.

 

[stratokaster]

Looks a bit beat up. If you end up getting EPA-110, be aware that the tonearm itself comes without the arm lifter which is built into the stock armboard, so make sure you're getting the armboard and the lifter mechanism as well.

 

[TrevorBarten]

Looks a bit beat up. If you end up getting EPA-110, be aware that the tonearm itself comes without the arm lifter which is built into the stock armboard, so make sure you're getting the armboard and the lifter mechanism as well.

the player has some marks I don't really mind but I am not sure how it would affect the value. Thanks for the heads up about the epa 110 !