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Technics SP10 mkII or Denon DP-80

Ken Boyd said:
Do you believe that? I would be very interested in that if the OP would like to share that information. The other supply I was looking at was 800 dollars, from a British company.
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If it were DIY and some parts were already laying around like a chassis and a transformer or two it'd be bit easier to believe, but a lot depends on the parts and sourcing (salvage/surplus vs. new). I'm not sure what "better" is supposed to be in this case.
 
Mister Pig said:
Hey speaking of that....it reminds me.

Do please tell us the story of restoration/repair of AvFan SP10MK II. That was my table, and that one came from Japan and was owned by a Japanese hobbyist and not a commercial studio. That table had very nice cosmetics and looked to have lived a very pampered life.

Please do tell us the condition of the board and traces. How many hours did the restoration need. And then it had to be serviced a second time?

Not many DD owners will have access to skilled folks such as yourself who can properly service this table. As I understand Peter Noerbeck will do the DP80, but your average service shop won't invest the time to rebuild these.

Oh and what is the cost for an average rebuild of the SP 10 MK II from you?

As a disclaimer the table always did appear to operate properly. So if there were measurable faults it was below a threshold of hearing. It is a very nice table, and sounded excellent. I had a Brinkmann Bardo after it,and there really were no appreciable differences.
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What @AvFan wanted to share exists in a thread here from that time. I generally do not discuss what I may or may not do for people on any forum, and you know that most of what you're asking is against forum rules even if I were inclined to discuss it. @AvFan's business is his, and his to discuss.
 
BillWojo know where you are coming from, years ago I owned an Austin Healey 3000, the poor mans Jag, sharp car and fun to drive but you needed to own a second vehicle, a tow truck. I'v been in this hobby for a number of years and like you amazed at what is still available and at a reasonable price. Who knows how long this will last before the supply starts to dry up and prices skyrocket. I have a feeling that the Japanese audio magazines/journals were more on the technical side and a lot less blowing the horn for their advertisers. Most of what I picked up years ago was from a member from another audio site who lived in Japan spoke the language and owned a number of the Japanese upper tier and statement tables. At the time when he lived in Japan I suspect he paid pennies on the dollar. AK is a big tent encompassing just about everything under the sun but I have yet to see anyone here with a $100,000+ table or anything close to it. Maybe best to keep our sights on what is doable/affordable for a good number of AK members like the OP.
 
JP said:
I don’t see this as an argument of superiority in so much as an attempt to convey basic facts against parroted rhetoric and ignorance.
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That's right, and the "tradition that stands the test of time" is the thread-crapping that started on post #5.
Can't even have a conversation or learn about two top DD decks without someone stirring the belt pot. Then they complain when they actually started it. Don't like the conversation about DD vs Belt, then don't jump into a DD thread and start it.
 
JP said:
What @AvFan wanted to share exists in a thread here from that time. I generally do not discuss what I may or may not do for people on any forum, and you know that most of what you're asking is against forum rules even if I were inclined to discuss it. @AvFan's business is his, and his to discuss.
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Then lets do it this way.

How many hours to do a typical restoration of a SP 10 MK II to get it into factory spec?
At least from this point an owner could extrapolate their shops hourly rate. If that tech can do this kind of work.

How many techs can do this? (I suspect I will not get a guesstimate from you)


The ultimate question is as follows:

Who is going to service them?

What can the average owner expect a typical restoration cost?
 
Somehow have the feeling that the OP is going to end up paying on the other end for a power supply after getting the motor unit for short money. Add to that a worthy plinth and tonearm, looking at what's out there the sellers of parts and accessories usually charge a premium. In the end you might spend less for a complete package already assembled, motor unit/power supply/plinth/tonearm.
 
Mister Pig said:
Then lets do it this way.

How many hours to do a typical restoration of a SP 10 MK II to get it into factory spec?
At least from this point an owner could extrapolate their shops hourly rate. If that tech can do this kind of work.

How many techs can do this? (I suspect I will not get a guesstimate from you)


The ultimate question is as follows:

Who is going to service them?

What can the average owner expect a typical restoration cost?
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I participate on forums as a hobbyist.
 
JP said:
I participate on forums as a hobbyist.
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Then as a knowledgeable hobbyist...

I believe in the past you said that its unlikely that an unrestored SP10 MK II will meet those specs right?

You know what it takes to restore one as a hobbyist, so you should be able to give a time frame of what someone should expect for bench hours. Then they could know what a tech might charge IF they are willing to work on one.

You want to dispel the myths about DD tables.

But you should give them the other half of the story.

What to expect from a 40 year old unrestored table.

What they would expect to spend to get that table to meet the specs that are published. I also believe you mentioned the strobe is not a reliable indicator of speed performance and variance.

Lets work with an example. A typical SP1o MK II sells for $1500 to $2500 now, and these are unrestored tables.

Now lets say I live on the West Coast and the only reliable tech to do this resides on the East Coast. Shipping for table and power supply is easily going to be $150 each way. A person would have to eat that cost to bench it just to see what the baseline condition is.

Now what do we need for a repair cost? 8 hours? 10 hours? I am betting we are over $1000.


How about the complete picture since you have the knowledge?
 
If you've a point about TCO you'd like to make, perhaps just make it? Attempting to goad me in to discussing things that I've already said I do not discuss on forums on top of asking me to break the rules here isn't going to get you anywhere.
 
JP said:
If you've a point about TCO you'd like to make, perhaps just make it? Attempting to goad me in to discussing things that I've already said I do not discuss on forums on top of asking me to break the rules here isn't going to get you anywhere.
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What should one reasonably expect to pay for a SP10 MK II in restored working condition on the used market.

I am seeing complete tables in obsidian base and period correct non Audio Technica arms for greater than $5000. But these are unrestored.

But how can we make apple to apple comparisons and deceleration of value and performance without a realistic estimate of restoration cost?

What is avoided in these discussions are total costs and availability of service and wait time.

$5K for unrestored is getting out of pocket change arena. Of course it can be argued these are asking prices...and that is viable point.

You tell half the story...how about the rest of it?
 
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What story did I tell? I provided factual information about how something works and performs. I made no comparisons or value statements, nor did I give an opinion on what the OP, or anyone else, should purchase.

If people want to know what it costs to acquire something they should probably do some research. I'd suggest looking at sold listings rather than open listing as asking isn't getting. I find pricing is highly dependent on condition, location, the story, timing, etc.

I don't think legitimate research on service cost is difficult. There's likely a wide range and folks will need to make their own value decisions on what's offered. I've seen many people claim they don't need service unless they're clearly broken and in some cases even then the issues apparently aren't audible. I'd also do some research on TCO - how often is service needed, and to what extent.

If the USP/ESP/VP aren't there for someone then they shouldn't buy one. I think these are all just common-sense things with broad applicability.

I haven't noticed that TCO is avoided. I don't discuss it from a value perspective for the reasons I've already given.
 
I buy, sell and regularly restore turntables.
I currently have 14 turntables. Of all the units I have had come through over the years, in the order of hundreds of units, ....I am content if it: a) is reliable
b) keeps time accurately with either quartz lock or a pitch control, c) looks good in the room.

Of all the models I have had in my possession, I kept for personal use:
SP-10, YP-800, Dual 1219 all for different reasons.

The SP-10 is a beast and would make an excellent investment. Then you get to play with tone arms and cartridges until the end of time.

I have also been throughly impressed with cheap units as well when setup correctly.

I had a Linn that was arguably the quietest unit that I have ever owned and regret selling. Boo Hoo Hoo.
 
JP said:
What @AvFan wanted to share exists in a thread here from that time. I generally do not discuss what I may or may not do for people on any forum, and you know that most of what you're asking is against forum rules even if I were inclined to discuss it. @AvFan's business is his, and his to discuss.
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The thread @JP referenced is here for folks who are interested.

I'm not going to provide specifics regarding the cost of restoring my SP10 MKII and if someone has one they'd like restored I highly recommend they contact JP directly via his website Fidelis Analog. However, in thinking about the OP's original question IMO it is important to acknowledge that older gear will require, like older cars, more than just routine maintenance to perform as if they were new. All of my older gear, an AR XB, DB Systems preamp and tone control, and my Technics SP10 MKII all required work beyond simple maintenance for them to work as they should. My rough estimate is that it will ultimately cost twice what I paid to have someone restore a piece of older gear to full function. If someone has the skill sets to do that work themselves, good for them, but I don't.

Another issue to consider when buying older gear is the availability of parts. For example one of my failures was my attempt to bring back to glory a Pioneer PL-610 semi-auto turntable. I spent multiple times what I paid for the turntable trying to fix its auto return that wouldn't work because of a failed IC. I eventually sourced the IC on the German eBay site and my local tech installed it. The damn thing worked like a charm for...about three LPs and then the well known speed issue cropped up. And don't get me started on the failed feet that are a critical part of the tables suspension. Lesson learned!

In summary: 1) if someone doesn't have the skills, available parts, the money and patience for restoration or a qualified person to do the restoration of older gear then they should save up their money and buy new and 2) if newer used gear is purchased know that the time it will work as new is less than if it was bought new and a restoration will be required in the future.
 
I own two SP10 MkII tables, I received both with plans to restore them. I purchased the caps to rebuild the power supplies but after looking inside the turntable and the complexity I sent one to JP. The typical recap of both table and power supply, new strobe, new bearing, and a variable resistor that came apart on me while I was recapping the power supply. It is one of the main tables I use and has worked great for years now. I would recommend JP to anyone for any brand of gear if he would agree to repair it because I have confidence in his abilities. I have wanted to send my other table but just have yet to get around to it.

I do agree with Mr Pig when all is said and done if you want a cheap turntable, it isn't the SP10 MkII and for sure not a MkIII. Initial purchase price, shipping, restore, shipping back, plinth, tone arm, cartridge, at the end it adds up.

I do enjoy all the post from Mr. Pig, and the Sgt, over the years and I seem to sense some tension over these types of threads but really, I don't care to have the last word, as I also think the tables many of you own are really great tables not any less than mine at all, quite the contrary most of them are better tables. I wouldn't mind owning any of them.
 
Ken Boyd said:
I own two SP10 MkII tables, I received both with plans to restore them. I purchased the caps to rebuild the power supplies but after looking inside the turntable and the complexity I sent one to JP. The typical recap of both table and power supply, new strobe, new bearing, and a variable resistor that came apart on me while I was recapping the power supply. It is one of the main tables I use and has worked great for years now. I would recommend JP to anyone for any brand of gear if he would agree to repair it because I have confidence in his abilities. I have wanted to send my other table but just have yet to get around to it.

I do agree with Mr Pig when all is said and done if you want a cheap turntable, it isn't the SP10 MkII and for sure not a MkIII. Initial purchase price, shipping, restore, shipping back, plinth, tone arm, cartridge, at the end it adds up.

I do enjoy all the post from Mr. Pig, and the Sgt, over the years and I seem to sense some tension over these types of threads but really, I don't care to have the last word, as I also think the tables many of you own are really great tables not any less than mine at all, quite the contrary most of them are better tables. I wouldn't mind owning any of them.
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Nice post!

One day, I'd like to try that SP10 MkII. :thumbsup:
 
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