Technics SP10 mkII or Denon DP-80
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cafe latte
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cafe latte
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JP
7480 74111110101115
Sure.
Now that I've a schematic in front of me, C2, C4, C6, C204, C227, C410, C416-417 are the first to go. C227 is perhaps the messiest as it physically leaks eating traces on the top side of the board. As it's flush mounted typically the damage isn't visible until it has progressed rather far.
Capacitor health after 40 years is highly variable and will depend on use and environment both for use and storage. The majority of units will show issues with at least the above caps, though I've seen plenty where far more were physically leaking. I haven't measured ESR of any of them in years as about half the caps locations are known issues so there's no sense in leaving the rest.
Outside of caps, the motors are another highly variable item. With no idea of what the maintenance, hours, oil, environment, etc. were across the units life, it's simply not possible to make an assessment without opening it up, and once you open it you may as well do the basics. Also, just adding oil to an unknown motor is a crapshoot. One the most damaged bearings I've seen was an NOS motor that someone added 4-5 drops of oil to and ran. These motors have plenty of power to do damage to themselves and a control system that can mitigate all but the worst signs.
I've no doubt there are low-hour units out there that are original and running fine, but those would be the exception. Too many variables and unknowns to make a blanket statement like that, and indeed evidence does not support it. I do believe people are using units that are performing far below what they should be and don't know it - I've seen plenty of evidence of that.
Now that I've a schematic in front of me, C2, C4, C6, C204, C227, C410, C416-417 are the first to go. C227 is perhaps the messiest as it physically leaks eating traces on the top side of the board. As it's flush mounted typically the damage isn't visible until it has progressed rather far.
Capacitor health after 40 years is highly variable and will depend on use and environment both for use and storage. The majority of units will show issues with at least the above caps, though I've seen plenty where far more were physically leaking. I haven't measured ESR of any of them in years as about half the caps locations are known issues so there's no sense in leaving the rest.
Outside of caps, the motors are another highly variable item. With no idea of what the maintenance, hours, oil, environment, etc. were across the units life, it's simply not possible to make an assessment without opening it up, and once you open it you may as well do the basics. Also, just adding oil to an unknown motor is a crapshoot. One the most damaged bearings I've seen was an NOS motor that someone added 4-5 drops of oil to and ran. These motors have plenty of power to do damage to themselves and a control system that can mitigate all but the worst signs.
I've no doubt there are low-hour units out there that are original and running fine, but those would be the exception. Too many variables and unknowns to make a blanket statement like that, and indeed evidence does not support it. I do believe people are using units that are performing far below what they should be and don't know it - I've seen plenty of evidence of that.
best-groove
Active Member
I have always found the seat of the sp10 II engines dirty and blackened; poor maintenance or a engine that gets dirty on its own? I don't know, but I do know that I found some Victor TT 71 and 81 engines perfectly in order and clean, as if someone had done maintenance before giving them to me for a check.
Yet the all engines we discuss have at least 40 years of use.
cafe latte
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cafe latte
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Well done JP. No need to use that tone, just saying I have serviced 4 SP10's from different sources, ages and condition. All did not have the issues you spoke of in the motor unit or in the motor itself. Not saying it cant happen, but clearly these issues you claim are ot on every unit or even a large percentage otherwise it seems I have been remarkably luck indeed.
The first one a bought was from a second hand shop in Melborne, the next two were seriously rough looking from Perth, the last was from Japan in good looking condition so a real cross section of tables.
Chris
JP
7480 74111110101115
There's no tone. People may read these posts to inform their decision making. Only fair they understand the size of the sample pool someone's advice is based on.
You're making very broad generalizations based on an extremely narrow sample pool with the ramifications being the possibility of someone doing permanent damage to their 'table. Four units is not statistically significant in the slightest, and we don't even know how you're assessing that they're running right. Perhaps I've seen around a dozen as you state, but that's far less than a majority and not what I'd base advice on.
You're making very broad generalizations based on an extremely narrow sample pool with the ramifications being the possibility of someone doing permanent damage to their 'table. Four units is not statistically significant in the slightest, and we don't even know how you're assessing that they're running right. Perhaps I've seen around a dozen as you state, but that's far less than a majority and not what I'd base advice on.
One thing's for certain, a unit that has spent its life in Japan will probably have been through many cycles of heat/cold and humidity/dryness. About half the year is very dry, the other half humid, and for 2-3 months, maximum temperatures well above 30 degrees (C) with accompanying humidity are typical.
It may have been in slightly better (atmospheric) conditions if used in a studio, but even there, it's unlikely that they had 24/7 air conditioning.
Many residential buildings are wood, often poorly insulated. The temperature in such rooms will easily soar in the afternoons to the high 30s. So if a turntable has been in storage for long, or in a fan-cooled house, or an interior where air-conditioning is only sporadically used - all of which describes typical residential settings - then it has gone through a lot more than it would normally have been subjected to in, for example, northern Europe.
It may have been in slightly better (atmospheric) conditions if used in a studio, but even there, it's unlikely that they had 24/7 air conditioning.
Many residential buildings are wood, often poorly insulated. The temperature in such rooms will easily soar in the afternoons to the high 30s. So if a turntable has been in storage for long, or in a fan-cooled house, or an interior where air-conditioning is only sporadically used - all of which describes typical residential settings - then it has gone through a lot more than it would normally have been subjected to in, for example, northern Europe.
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tabarddn51
Super Member
Hi, Having been to Japan several times & for a period worked there, I can assure you, no one who own's a SP10 lives in a wooden building. But most people in the class that would own a SP10 have the air-con & humidifier on 24/7.
Cheers
I can assure you that they do. Suburban one or two storey houses are generally wood. Concrete houses are few and far between, and mostly built by the genuinely wealthy - which isn't a description of the average SP10 owner.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
You do like to make yourself out as the only expert in threads JP and you are far from it. One of the best Techs is Warren IMO on another forum, I believe he was a Tech for Marantz for many years. Not doubting you know a bit about SP10's but you are far from a world authority on them or are in a position to cast dount on others ability. What Warren has done to his is mind blowing especially is latest inverted bearing.
4 tables at random over years is not extremely small sample size. If basket cases were common then either I have been extremely lucky or the other possibility is SP 10's with major problem are not as common as you say as it would be statistically very unlikely to get 4 good ones.
What do you think the "J" in "JVC" stands for?
Is the sky plaid in your universe? KentT here worked on SP10 Mk.IIs when they were still radio station workhorses. He reports that it was standard practice to rebuild the power supplies on a rotating schedule because they're so damned finicky about capacitors and clean power supplies, especially on the logic rail. My own experience supports that. Even new caps that test good on a cap checker sometimes won't work right when installed in an SH-10E power supply. The SP-10 Mk.II (and the Mk.III that I've never managed to lay hands on) are glorious drive units, some of the best ever built. They're also confounding flakes. Beautiful, desirable, glorious flakes.
cafe latte
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I agree the caps in the psu are a problem I never said otherwise, I was discussing inside the motor unit not the psu. All my psu's had dodgy caps, but they are easy to change and adjust.
Chris
I had some inside my drive unit that were dodgy, but it's an example of one that was rode hard and put away after a thunderstorm. One other thing worth noting - these things can behave in a perfectly stable manner at 33 and 45, and completely become deranged when the "78" button is touched. Japan's 78 rpm history may have been largely destroyed in WWII, but they were still selling lots of turntables to markets where 78s were still fairly common in the 70s. There is a reason why there are so few classic DD tables with 78 RPM settings.
BillWojo
Addicted Member
@Sam Cogley, of course it stands for Japanese! I assumed you and everyone else knows JVC was a Japanese company.
Actually JVC stands for Japanese Victor Corporation.
The company has an interesting history and is known for innovation.
BillWojo
Actually JVC stands for Japanese Victor Corporation.
The company has an interesting history and is known for innovation.
BillWojo
