The 80s, when and why did it all go wrong?

[Pioneer.user]

And some data

Pioneer sa 9800 intermodulation 0.01-0.05 %

Pioneer Elite m90a intermodulation 0.002 % (much Less than in 9800,guess dual mono construction works well)

 

[Pioneer.user]

The A-91D is streets ahead of the SA-9800 in performance, usability, looks, build quality (another 10kg heavier) and on the bench it is able to deliver over twice as much power into low impedances.

Pioneers sa 8800,sa9800, sa9500, sa 8900ii all from 70s, tube AMP pioneer sm83 from 1967 and they all weight Less than A91D, c90a/m90a from 80s. Elite series wasnt black plastic crap at all. And Elite was built better than some amps from 70s.

I just wish people would stop pretending the 1970s was the pinnacle of all things hifi. I wish it was (because I've got an awful lot of 70s gear), but it simply isn't.

Exactly. Some people think that all from 80s was bpc and all from 70s was better built. Thats completely wrong.

The 1980s and into the early nineties offered us incredibly good TOTL hifi gear- way better than the TOTL gear in the 1970s. It was just very expensive and not a lot was sold as compared to the glory years of the 70s. Much of it is still in the hands of the original purchasers because it was so reliable, so there is less for us blokes to 'scroe

Amen.

 

[HPMguy]

Transistors and capacitors were much better in the 80's than in the 70's, circuit design was better, and the conversion from point to point wire to circuit boards was complete -- far less "rats nest" wiring issues. Flat ribbon cable helped too.

Lower end stuff was still lower end stuff, but even that was sonically better most of the time, simply due to better components.

All complicated by the introduction of remote controls, large scale custom integrated circuits, and ugly faceplates with lots of flashing lights.

And as noted above, the top end stuff was very, very good -- and most of the Kenwood stuff anyway had black anodized faceplates, not plastic. Of course, the faceplate has very, very little to do with the electronics inside anyway....

Home theater is what did in the mid-fi equipment, and VHS/DVDs. The number of people actually concentrating on listening to music on a good stereo dropped of quite a bit, TV and video games were the thing, so sales dropped off.

 

[mcgjohn]

There were plenty of great audio products and companies in the 80s, although not necessarily from the mid-fi segment.

The 80s began a new era of other forms of home entertainment including VHS/Betamax, Atari video games, computers, cable TV, etc.. whereas in the 70s it was basically stereo or TV. Budget dollars for the average household entertainment got spread thinner and the mid-fi audio companies got less of the pie.

would agree, plus one more, The PC. The PC became the item to buy for techie folks rather than a nice stereo. Stereo was so 1970s in many of their minds.

There was some really good gear in the 1980s from the likes of CJ, etc.

Today true ultra high end audio has become a hobby for the 1% club.

 

[z-adamson]

And some data

Pioneer sa 9800 intermodulation 0.01-0.05 %

Pioneer Elite m90a intermodulation 0.002 % (much Less than in 9800,guess dual mono construction works well)

Dual mono does indeed work better than stereo…..all else equal. Not many will argue that. But even a good stereo amp is going to have intermodulation distortion of 0.1% to 0.05% which is still not audible. If you can really hear the difference there then you must have superhuman hearing and some speakers that resolve incredibly well.

The argument that the 70s had better gear is that the mass produced consumer grade gear was superior. Nobody is saying that not a single thing after the 70s was good.

 

[z-adamson]

Exactly. Some people think that all from 80s was bpc and all from 70s was better built.

Name some of these people.

I have not seen anyone say that literally all gear from the 80s was bpc. Although many would generalize and say that the bulk of mass produced consumer gear from the 70s was better and that a lot of 80s consumer grade mass produced gear was plastic.

 

[tourmax]

LP's meant you could enjoy your favorite music at home and spawned both consumer grade and high end enthusiast gear. Music was a hobby as much as (or more than) a pass-time.

Then cassettes made music portable, which dealt a mighty blow to LP sales. Music was now a soundtrack for every day life.

Then, CD killed off often-times troublesome cassettes. Conglomerates started rubbing their hands together thinking about the profits.

Then everything went crazy digital starting with MP3's. Enter Napster, Limewire, etc and the rise of "engineered" bands/groups.

Then the Ipod hit and it was all over. Thou shalt not build high end expensive systems to listen to music. Thou shalt use crappy, small portable speakers or ear buds. Thou shalt enjoy inferior quality playback of interior formats and thou shalt like it!

Now we're into this "online/streaming" BS every day....and worse off for it IMHO....

 

[z-adamson]

Transistors and capacitors were much better in the 80's than in the 70's, circuit design was better, and the conversion from point to point wire to circuit boards was complete -- far less "rats nest" wiring issues. Flat ribbon cable helped too.

But into the 80s, at least for the most part, you start getting into "brick" style output transistors as opposed to the TO3 package. And you get a lot of integrated circuits. The common sanken or toshiba brick output transistor which is soldered in place with bent leads may be electrically functional but if you need to remove them to clean them and apply some heat sink compound, which is pretty essential after a certain period of time, have fun. And the ICs, they may function just fine, but when you need a replacement, good luck. The cooling capacity of the ICs relative to a fully discrete design is pretty bad too.

You could say that better transistors and caps came into existence, but were they used to better the entry to mid level gear or were they reserved for the high end?

Earlier entry to mid level gear was discrete, through hole, had TO3 outputs and was actually quite nice all things considered.

Later entry to mid level gear was not quite as nice, even if the high end got better. If you look at it that way, todays high end blows away the high end of the 80s and todays entry level gear is crap.

 

[HPMguy]

I don't think the TO3 package is in any way superior. And every design I've looked at from the 80's has used 992 and 1845 transistors in the differential pairs, with higher capacity transistors in the current mirror (and up to three differential pairs vs one) and driver/outputs. Same parts except where more voltage and current are required for more output watts, and same capacitors everywhere. Most of them are still the same ones we use to replace the much less reliable ones used in the 70's.

Electrolytic caps improved quite a bit, rarely see leaking ones in post 85 equpiment, at least in my limited experience, and then only when the outputs are also shorted. Far fewer dead ones too. Except in the "always on" circuits older equipment didn't have since it didn't have remote controls!

The "brick" outputs run higher voltage, higher wattage, and run cooler than the earlier TO3 did, considerably more heat transfer area since they don't have "legs" sticking out around the die inside the case. New replacements by other manufacturers are even better.

Quality will be determined by the price the average consumer is willing to pay, as always, and low end suffers the most. That said, low end 90's is still probably better than low end 70's, since early 70's stuff still had germanium transistors. Low wattage "all in ones" were OK, nothing to get excited about, and modern new stuff is all class D with LOTS more power, but probably not better sound. The market for inexpensive stereo (up to what used to be the mid range) got eaten by TVs with external speakers, the high end was cannibalized by Home Theater, whatever that is.

 

[z-adamson]

I don't think the TO3 package is in any way superior. And every design I've looked at from the 80's has used 992 and 1845 transistors in the differential pairs, with higher capacity transistors in the current mirror (and up to three differential pairs vs one) and driver/outputs. Same parts except where more voltage and current are required for more output watts, and same capacitors everywhere. Most of them are still the same ones we use to replace the much less reliable ones used in the 70's.

Electrolytic caps improved quite a bit, rarely see leaking ones in post 85 equpiment, at least in my limited experience, and then only when the outputs are also shorted. Far fewer dead ones too. Except in the "always on" circuits older equipment didn't have since it didn't have remote controls!

The "brick" outputs run higher voltage, higher wattage, and run cooler than the earlier TO3 did, considerably more heat transfer area since they don't have "legs" sticking out around the die inside the case. New replacements by other manufacturers are even better.

Quality will be determined by the price the average consumer is willing to pay, as always, and low end suffers the most. That said, low end 90's is still probably better than low end 70's, since early 70's stuff still had germanium transistors. Low wattage "all in ones" were OK, nothing to get excited about, and modern new stuff is all class D with LOTS more power, but probably not better sound. The market for inexpensive stereo (up to what used to be the mid range) got eaten by TVs with external speakers, the high end was cannibalized by Home Theater, whatever that is.

TO3 is much easier to service, which is a big deal when dealing with decades old equipment. Legs that are bent at a precise angle and soldered make servicing impossible or at least very difficult and risky.

My other beef with newer gear…

Newer gear tends to be surface mount with lots of ICs…not cool if you try to restore.

 

[HPMguy]

Lol, surface mount is terrible. Too much tremor here to do much of anything but flip tiny parts into the great never never. A hot air solder station is absolutely required for surface mount for me.

I've never had an issue with the bent leg power transistors, other than that new ones have shorter legs and I have to solder some de-soldering braid onto them to reach the pads or drill and tap the heat sink. They usually have a huge blob of solder on them from the factory. Solder sucker and some braid have gotten them off for me so far. Have not worked on anything infared soldered yet, so that may be in the future too.

A row of 16 header pins soldered to a board at right angles is more hassle. I bought sockets so I can use that instead of soldering them down if I have to work on them again!

 

[z-adamson]

Lol, surface mount is terrible. Too much tremor here to do much of anything but flip tiny parts into the great never never. A hot air solder station is absolutely required for surface mount for me.

I've never had an issue with the bent leg power transistors, other than that new ones have shorter legs and I have to solder some de-soldering braid onto them to reach the pads or drill and tap the heat sink. They usually have a huge blob of solder on them from the factory. Solder sucker and some braid have gotten them off for me so far. Have not worked on anything infared soldered yet, so that may be in the future too.

A row of 16 header pins soldered to a board at right angles is more hassle. I bought sockets so I can use that instead of soldering them down if I have to work on them again!

What I like about TO3 is that there is no soldering and the legs are straight. Just undo 2 screws and push in / push out. The brick transistors are soldered. Meaning desolder then resolder. Or, unscrew then bend the legs to clear. Either way is risky. Bending legs then bending back can lead to a broken or at least a fatigued leg that can never be bent again without breaking. Desolder then resolder means more heat cycles for the board (not good) and more heat cycles for the transistor itself (not good). TO3 has no such issues hence my preference. I understand that electrically the TO3 is no more effective, but from a maintenance standpoint, far superior. And with older gear, thats a big deal, to me anyways.

 

[Bill Ferris]

I haven`t read in this thread about the introduction in the mid eighties (at least that`s when I started seeing the use of the STK-~? style power pack output stages showing up in some receivers brought to me for servicing).
Oh joy !

 

[hopeless]

And some data

Pioneer sa 9800 intermodulation 0.01-0.05 %

Pioneer Elite m90a intermodulation 0.002 % (much Less than in 9800,guess dual mono construction works well)

Meaningless. The numbers are microscopic. There are many design aspects being ignored for this simple comparison.

 

[Pioneer.user]

Meaningless. The numbers are microscopic. There are many design aspects being ignored for this simple comparison.

Measures has a meaning.
Build quality has a meaning.
Price has a meaning (but Less)

 

[PaperBoy007]

There were plenty of great audio products and companies in the 80s, although not necessarily from the mid-fi segment.

The 80s began a new era of other forms of home entertainment including VHS/Betamax, Atari video games, computers, cable TV, etc.. whereas in the 70s it was basically stereo or TV. Budget dollars for the average household entertainment got spread thinner and the mid-fi audio companies got less of the pie.

Hey, we got our first Atari console at our house in the early 70s -- I remember pong and breakout.

 

[Bone Yard]

Audio took a beating starting around 79, except for cassettes and their players. If you want to do the deep dive, read the retail trade publications over on archive.org, some of the big companies were seeing 10-25% year over year drop in sales. Offshoring, new circuit boards and CAD/CAM helped the builders keep costs down, especially on the entry level BPC stuff and that's the equipment most of us used to see all of the time back then.

The rarely talked about plastic molding industry, was producing bigger, better products with more complex curves and quick assembly tabs every year. Unfortunately plastic front panels didn't work well with component audio equipment and most of it looks cheap. On the other hand, boomboxes, Walkmans and even TV sets looked much better in plastic (there's lots of exceptions) with bright colors, different textures and an endless assortment of designs.

The Japanese kept the high-end equipment manufacturing locally but that equipment is pretty rare, at least over here. In 20 years I've only seen a handful and it's usually the smaller brands. I have no doubt it's as good or better then 70's equipment but it got so expensive and had much less distribution.

 

[z-adamson]

Measures has a meaning.
Build quality has a meaning.
Price has a meaning (but Less)

Measurements have meaning, but the numbers you are talking about relative to the numbers of the single transformer amps is essentially meaningless as the difference is microscopic.

If I were using exotic gear all the way around, I would go with exotic mono blocks for sure.

But for the mid-fi gear that most around here use, makes no difference.

 

[hopeless]

Meas

Measures has a meaning.
Build quality has a meaning.
Price has a meaning (but Less)

Measurements usually don't usually mean what people think. It's amazing the arguments I get sometimes. "But the specs say", not realizing the context. Context is everything.
Build quality can be meaningful, but I've heard lots of chunky gear that sounded meh to awful. It has to be built right. Sometimes that doesn't happen.
Price often doesn't work as it should. It's no guarantee.

 

[maxhifi]

I haven`t read in this thread about the introduction in the mid eighties (at least that`s when I started seeing the use of the STK-~? style power pack output stages showing up in some receivers brought to me for servicing).
Oh joy !

Oldest one I've seen is in the 1975 Sansui AU-2200, which is actually a neat and good sounding little amp! I find them very easy to service, assuming you can find a new one!