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The best phono preamp under $1000 (aka the Hagerman Bugle upgrade thread)

You've been working overtime to let us know how great your phono preamp is, but I have yet to see a link or website where I can:
A. Find specs and background info on it, and
B. Order it (completed, as a kit, whatever you offer.)

I'm sure people would be interested in reading about and possibly ordering it.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...wyn-phono-line-warp-headphone-pre-amp.946223/

there are Dropbox links to the circuits, files for having the PCB manufactured, BOMs for components and explanations of the design (that are way over my head)
Currently also a call for a group buy of the PCB

Recent announcement is that SOTA is making two commercial products based on WP’s design the Pyxis and Acrux
 
You've been working overtime to let us know how great your phono preamp is, but I have yet to see a link or website where I can:
A. Find specs and background info on it, and
B. Order it (completed, as a kit, whatever you offer.)

I'm sure people would be interested in reading about and possibly ordering it.
I've also attempted to provide background info. on the design philosophy etc. in the various threads that come up. It was intended for a semi-technical audience- i.e. the audiophile crowd, and was written for SOTA.
Heck, I've been mostly restrained to the house for quite a while now, except for very brief trips. I'm bored. I'm sick of video games, even listening to the audio system, and we have a hurricane remnant crashing around us at the moment. My workstation crashing set all my design projects back months and I'm feeling slightly dispirited about recreating the designs that were mostly done, so please forgive me, this is, in most part, a diversion in a time of need, and if I seem a bit- intense- I apologize. I'd really like for a critique, an exchange, if possible, on the approach and the results in the context of other quality designs. like the Hagerman as that is where the fun lies.
 
You've been working overtime to let us know how great your phono preamp is, but I have yet to see a link or website where I can:
A. Find specs and background info on it, and
B. Order it (completed, as a kit, whatever you offer.)

I'm sure people would be interested in reading about and possibly ordering it.
Oh, by the way, I really liked your original post. Amusing and accurate. Again, my apologies.
 
Oh, by the way, I really liked your original post. Amusing and accurate. Again, my apologies.
I’m glad everyone is playing well together (including myself). But it’s a learning experience and I am down to learn more about how and why this all works.

Hopefully some will try out the mods Oranda put forth on the B2 and we can have something to compare.
 
I've also attempted to provide background info. on the design philosophy etc. in the various threads that come up. It was intended for a semi-technical audience- i.e. the audiophile crowd, and was written for SOTA.
Heck, I've been mostly restrained to the house for quite a while now, except for very brief trips. I'm bored. I'm sick of video games, even listening to the audio system, and we have a hurricane remnant crashing around us at the moment. My workstation crashing set all my design projects back months and I'm feeling slightly dispirited about recreating the designs that were mostly done, so please forgive me, this is, in most part, a diversion in a time of need, and if I seem a bit- intense- I apologize. I'd really like for a critique, an exchange, if possible, on the approach and the results in the context of other quality designs. like the Hagerman as that is where the fun lies.
Enjoy boredom while you can. During my working career, there was no time for this. Rock on
 
I've been mostly restrained to the house for quite a while now, except for very brief trips. I'm bored. I'm sick of video games, even listening to the audio system, and we have a hurricane remnant crashing around us at the moment. My workstation crashing set all my design projects back months and I'm feeling slightly dispirited about recreating the designs that were mostly done, so please forgive me, this is, in most part, a diversion in a time of need, and if I seem a bit- intense- I apologize.

Sorry to hear that. I can totally sympathize with the tedium of having to go back and re-create what you've already done. Very happy to provide a diversion and I actually appreciate the intensity. I knew there would be some degree of heat and it would not be a proper upgrade thread without casting critical eye to aspects of Hagerman's circuit and my suggestions. There are more things to think about... Though I think the posted simulations for incorporating the Neumann time constant are not complete and indicate a more concerning trend than what's seen in practice: Jim's measured RIAA adherence values for the Bugle 3 are +/-0.5dB (30Hz to 30kHz). Maybe not record breaking, but still quite good. I've certainly heard preamps that report tighter tolerances and sound worse. Put in perspective, consider that nominal capacitances of even good quality capacitors vary by +/-5%, which results in an at worse deviation that is basically the same as the Bugle's RIAA tolerance. As his reported RIAA adherence values extend into the supersonic, I don't think there is much cause for alarm. Though the discussion and the articles about it are very interesting.

Oh, by the way, I really liked your original post. Amusing and accurate. Again, my apologies.

Thank you for the kinds words! Re-reading that first post, the one thing I would clarify is that for the C4 and C6 (220nF) positions, I consider the Vishay 1822s to be more the (usually) plentiful and economic choice. They are mylar caps and have some lossiness and intrinsic limitations (as you obviously well know.) Not that they don't do a good job and appear well constructed. The design notes for the Caledonian Audio DIY phono preamp build recommend the 1822, noting they "have been our favourite capacitors for audio signal." Personally, I noticed the sonic performance exceeds other mylar caps I've tried to the point of making them preferable to some caps with superior dielectrics. Of course, capacitor performance is not entirely defined by the dielectric. As John Curl mentioned in a post elsewhere in cyberspace, "Some Mylar caps sound pretty good. Other factors are: lead material, termination to the cap body, and mechanical self-resonance. Some Teflon caps are lousy sounding."

Cheers!!
 
Sorry to hear that. I can totally sympathize with the tedium of having to go back and re-create what you've already done. Very happy to provide a diversion and I actually appreciate the intensity. I knew there would be some degree of heat and it would not be a proper upgrade thread without casting critical eye to aspects of Hagerman's circuit and my suggestions. There are more things to think about... Though I think the posted simulations for incorporating the Neumann time constant are not complete and indicate a more concerning trend than what's seen in practice: Jim's measured RIAA adherence values for the Bugle 3 are +/-0.5dB (30Hz to 30kHz). Maybe not record breaking, but still quite good. I've certainly heard preamps that report tighter tolerances and sound worse. Put in perspective, consider that nominal capacitances of even good quality capacitors vary by +/-5%, which results in an at worse deviation that is basically the same as the Bugle's RIAA tolerance. As his reported RIAA adherence values extend into the supersonic, I don't think there is much cause for alarm. Though the discussion and the articles about it are very interesting.



Thank you for the kinds words! Re-reading that first post, the one thing I would clarify is that for the C4 and C6 (220nF) positions, I consider the Vishay 1822s to be more the (usually) plentiful and economic choice. They are mylar caps and have some lossiness and intrinsic limitations (as you obviously well know.) Not that they don't do a good job and appear well constructed. The design notes for the Caledonian Audio DIY phono preamp build recommend the 1822, noting they "have been our favourite capacitors for audio signal." Personally, I noticed the sonic performance exceeds other mylar caps I've tried to the point of making them preferable to some caps with superior dielectrics. Of course, capacitor performance is not entirely defined by the dielectric. As John Curl mentioned in a post elsewhere in cyberspace, "Some Mylar caps sound pretty good. Other factors are: lead material, termination to the cap body, and mechanical self-resonance. Some Teflon caps are lousy sounding."

Cheers!!
The Bugle 2 simulated RIAA compliance from 20Hz, not 10Hz, to 20kHz is c. +/-0.4dB, excluding component variations.
The WP design nominally is +/- 0.009dB. The cap values are +/-1% and the R values are 0.1%. Some critical caps and resistors are effectively paralleled, reducing the standard deviation, but not the peak error. The RIAA time constant stages were designed with specific 1% tolerance PP and C0G caps in mind, and the gains/impedances were adjusted accordingly.
I have measured several tens of units and the RIAA accuracy has never been outside +/- 0.040dB 20Hz to 20kHz. I don't test RIAA into the supersonic range but there is a controlled multi pole roll off present that starts just outside the audio band. This variation is well within the inaudible range as far as any studies support or testing on my friends, and myself, can hear, and the "official" spec is within +/- 0.05dB. SOTA has also measured a number of units, and they concur, even though their measurement precision is not quite as good as mine.
Mylar (polyester film) caps have an unfortunate level of batch to batch and manufacturer to manufacturer variation in their linearity. That was unacceptable. Polypropylene is better in that regard, as is C0G, particularly from manufacturers such as Murata.
Almost all leaded caps have steel leads now rather than copper or a copper alloy. I have not noticed any difference in performance, either audible or measurable, down to the sub-ppm level, which is what the design will do. It's hard to come up with a theoretical reason why it should matter except when the capacitors are physically large- something that is avoided, especially in the SOTA designs which are entirely surface mount.


I have bench tested the used caps for distortion and dielectric absorption.
 
The Bugle 2 simulated RIAA compliance from 20Hz, not 10Hz, to 20kHz is c. +/-0.4dB, excluding component variations..

From your post, the upward trend at 20kHz looks to be a greater deviation than 0.4dB. The implication is that it gets much worse into the supersonic region.

The WP design nominally is +/- 0.009dB. The cap values are +/-1% and the R values are 0.1%...
I have measured several tens of units and the RIAA accuracy has never been outside +/- 0.040dB 20Hz to 20kHz....
This variation is well within the inaudible range as far as any studies support or testing on my friends, and myself, can hear, and the "official" spec is within +/- 0.05dB. SOTA has also measured a number of units, and they concur, even though their measurement precision is not quite as good as mine.

Yes, those are extremely tight specs and for sure those deviations would be inaudible.
 
From your post, the upward trend at 20kHz looks to be a greater deviation than 0.4dB. The implication is that it gets much worse into the supersonic region.



Yes, those are extremely tight specs and for sure those deviations would be inaudible.

The simulation shows that the uncorrected variation is from -11.5 to -12.7 or 1.2dB p-p. 20Hz-20KHz, with the nominal at about -12.1, so it's actually worse than I wrote, sorry, Brain fart...
 
You're welcome. I'll be sure to include some 1822s with my next DigiKey/Mouser order.

Those will be good IMO, but for a similar price, I slightly prefer the Kemet SMT PPS caps. Maybe order both and see what you find.
 
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@wyn palmer Ok, thought that I misread simulations conditions, but I now see the second (corrected) graph is the result from removing the Neumann filter and changing the R10. Thanks for posting that. Very interesting!!
 
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You've been working overtime to let us know how great your phono preamp is, but I have yet to see a link or website where I can:
A. Find specs and background info on it, and
B. Order it (completed, as a kit, whatever you offer.)

I'm sure people would be interested in reading about and possibly ordering it.

For anyone interested, I am offering a Group Buy at cost of boards and shipping for Wyn's latest DIY version which incorporates several useful features and refinements. The various project threads are very long, but if you start here on Post 1298 The Official "Build" thread for the WYN Phono,Line,Warp,Headphone Pre amp | Page 65 | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
I provide useful links and information.

Wyn's parallel op amp design was the inspiration for my latest build of an MC head amp (sans RIAA circuitry for those of us who use SUTs and head amps). New Build - High-Performance Dual Op Amp MC Head Amp | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
 
I have measured several tens of units and the RIAA accuracy has never been outside +/- 0.040dB 20Hz to 20kHz.

So that's pretty remarkable. I did a quick survey of RIAA accuracy for various commercial phono stages:

Schiit Mani: ± 0.2dB
Rega Aria: ± 0.2 dB (70-70kHz)
Project Tubebox DS2 ± 0.2dB
Clearaudio Smartphono V2: ± 0.3dB
Project Tubebox S2 ± 0.4 dB
Vincent PHO-500 ± 0.5 dB

Just a random sampling. Many, including some rather pricey phono preamps, are not obvious in their specification of tolerances. The Mofi phonostage, Lehmann Black Cube, Manley, Sutherland, others. I am in no way discounting your observations. I guess we were just looking at different slices of the market, and it shows the very high accuracy of your phono stage.
 
I wanted to share the below link as it relates to the Bugle. The Bugle came out the clear winner among budget phono stages. See Jim's response on the last page.
https://web.archive.org/web/20061112180327/https://audioxpress.com/reviews/media/403hansen2090.pdf

Even though the article is almost 20 years old many of these phono stages are still available but may be marketed under a different brand name.

And I have no doubt that the benefits of the upgrades outlined in the first post will take a Bugle 2&3 several notches up. Many thanks for posting that!
 
So that's pretty remarkable. I did a quick survey of RIAA accuracy for various commercial phono stages:

Schiit Mani: ± 0.2dB
Rega Aria: ± 0.2 dB (70-70kHz)
Project Tubebox DS2 ± 0.2dB
Clearaudio Smartphono V2: ± 0.3dB
Project Tubebox S2 ± 0.4 dB
Vincent PHO-500 ± 0.5 dB

Just a random sampling. Many, including some rather pricey phono preamps, are not obvious in their specification of tolerances. The Mofi phonostage, Lehmann Black Cube, Manley, Sutherland, others. I am in no way discounting your observations. I guess we were just looking at different slices of the market, and it shows the very high accuracy of your phono stage.
The design was configured, and the components chosen to give very tight RIAA compliance. It was simulated using worst case numbers and my estimates of the variances of the components (the manufacturers do not supply that information) and less than 1% of the channels should be outside the spec limits. In practice the sample size that I have is insufficient to reach any definitive conclusion on the statistics, even though the results are inside my projected max range.
As I said, so far all of the SOTA channels are within their spec range, and they are tested post assembly.
The first 250-unit build is almost complete, and I will be able to better get a judgement on the actual range.
 
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/qlqwoalnysuxysb/whitepaper (2).pdf?dl=0
You might find the above interesting reading as a not too technical description of a different phono stage approach, unless you have developed a taste for sourdough.

I had some time to read the whitepaper and wanted to get your thoughts on applying some of the concepts to the Bugle for MM cartridges.
  • Change input op-amp to FET but leave the other two BJT
  • Switch the passive RIAA components to have the 75us TS after stage 1 and 318us & 50us after stage 2
  • Modify the first stage for more gain and less for 2nd & 3rd stages. MM stock 1kHz gain is split 20db+20db+20db (-20db RIAA) for a total of 40db
In your opinion would any of these be worthwhile for the Bugle?
 
Ok. So you're in essence asking me to redesign the hagerman to better match my design criteria?
Do you wish for something that can be better retrofitted into the bugel 2 board, is that it?
 
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