The Official *Technics SL-1200* Owners Club
- Thread starter quietcity
- Start date
thedelihaus
Nocturnal transmissions
Edit: moved to discuss openly in another thread.
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js1138
Super Member
Jitter seems to be the new marketing buzzword. You can't measure it, or the high end manufacturers would be all over it. You can't demonstrate it in blind tests.
But you sure can scare people with it, and use it to justify spending lots of money on stuff that has audible flutter.
(I suspect you can measure it, and I suspect there's a reason why it isn't measured by manufacturers and compared with the 1200.)
But you sure can scare people with it, and use it to justify spending lots of money on stuff that has audible flutter.
(I suspect you can measure it, and I suspect there's a reason why it isn't measured by manufacturers and compared with the 1200.)
istols:
Frank Sol
Lunatic Member
"which the human ear is particularly sensitive" <--- I LOL when I read that this morning... BTW- I was sitting on the 'Can' reading... An apropos sitting position
iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
This guy (Fremer) can VERY OFTEN be a total idiot and incredibly full of himself. BRINKMAN'S OASIS AND BARDO ARE DIRECT DRIVE!!!! So everyone, we have to immediately discount both because they are direct drive and therefore have no business in a "serious" audio system....despite the multi-thousand dollar prices of each!!! In Fremer's perfect little world, all turntables would be belt drive, and just saying the words "direct drive" would be blasphemy! Idiot.
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frankmarsi
Active Member
Early perceptions of old things...........
4-30-11
Well today I finally installed a S.M.E 3009 Improved tone arm in one of my SL-1200Mk1 tables. This might make ‘Beatcomer’ and ‘thedelihaus’ somewhat interested?
I decided to use the SL-1200 table that was in the least good condition, this table had a “Black-Widow” with dedicated BW cables, never did listen to it though, as it needs new wires. I, felt since I was basically experimenting and this table already had been altered, why not start there. The Black-Widow came out real easy as I had to install it when I first bought the table and arm as a package for approximately $237. A great deal huh? I know! After that operation I was onto the SME install for about another agonizing 2-3 hours.
Well, first I had to deal with the S.M.E. arm as I wanted to change the original cables to a new RCA retro-fit kit which I paid $25. for and it seemed O.K. as the RCA’s allowed for horizontal fit as compared to vertical augmentation, I felt that would be best as I didn’t want to go thru the hassle with cables and RCA’s possibly being too long causing me to raise the entire table for clearance. I was wrong about that possibility because the SL-120 seems to be deep enough. Removing the original SME four contact terminal was easy although soldering those tiny wires to the retro-fit terminal was a little hairy but I breezed thru that part with minimal effort.
The actual problem here was that I had to bend the cables to fit inside the plinth, not easy with fat or stiff cables. I had some entry-level Vampires around, so I used those, I had really wanted to use my ‘StraightWire’ Symphonies II’s, as I feel they may have sounded better but, they didn’t seem to like bending inside of the plinth with out undue stressing. At this point I was now stressing out cause realizing these problems was saddening for me as I intended to use the best cable versus price, with out getting carried away, although tonite I'm gonna order the ‘Blue-Jeans’ cable as they have very little capacitance and this would be better for any cartridge over all, or so I’ve read. Maybe that’s it, cable quality and capacitance values?
Fast-forward. The S.M.E. is another kind of animal compared to the stock Technics arm, obvious to most, except I waited over 30 years to finally have one. The SME will always take more time to switch cartridges (about 5 minutes or more), whereas the stock arm is a matter of 2 minutes to change cartridge VTA, VTF, etc. I guess I wasn’t ready for that realization and delay in switching and that will always suck! But, just looking at the S.M.E. is thrilling as most will agree for it's a beautiful looking arm, always has been. I trust most know of its highly regarded technical reputation besides.
Comparing the sound of both arms, I feel the SME has finer detailed upper-mids, perhaps a ‘leaner’ and 'bewildering' (bass is somewhat shy, or cleaner, I'm still not sure), and perhaps slightly muted highs, and a some what reticent midrange over all compared to the original odd looking Technics arm? In few words the Technics arm sounded more ‘robust’, more bass 'slam' and rite now I’m leaning towards the Technic’s arm as being more enjoyable. Although I’m sensing the SME may have better transients and cleaner/defined overall presentation but, still seeming leaner sound?
Regarding comparisons in general may be a mistake with out further listening and adjusting. At first I was disappointed by the SME, one hour later I’m feeling different and better. I just know ‘tweaking’ will be a possible horror show with those two different size metric allen wrenches needed? What a drag that appears to be. Higher priced and later arms handled that, while drawing from all of the SME's original features.
For all tests tonite I’m using a AT-440mla, my ‘go-to’ cartridge that I generally use to compare others with. I’d like to try my AT-150MLX, but that’s going to be somewhat of a chore using the SME. I’ve always been the type who loves instant gratification and results in my pleasure seeking quests.
So, in closing, I have a 'constant' with the table and cartridge, the only difference being the SME tone arm. For me, the jury is still ‘out’. Please don’t get me wrong, it sounds great, but so did the old Technics arm surprisingly enough from its appearance. The differences are in brief; the SME seems ‘polite’ and behaved while the Technics arm was more ‘vivid’ and animated. I use the AT-440mla cartridge for similar reasons, I enjoy a sense of 'vividness'.
Did Panasonic/Technics feel that their arm compared favorably with the SME of that period, and is this why they offered the SL-1200Mk1 with and with out their own arm, or was it, solely an over-all sales consideration?
Has anyone out there done the same operation (I’m sure there are hundreds, and I know Technics sold many with this same S.M.E. arm installed), and if so what were the realized observations and opinions? Rite now I feel I’m simply going thru uneasiness and unfamiliarity with a different tone arm, I’m really not sure at this point nor know what to expect, especially after waiting for so many years. Is there a possibility that the two arms actually sound very similar? Hard-to-understand, as they look as different as nite and day and I need more time to evaluate.
I gotta go, excuse me while I go throwing more sides on!
FM
For consideration regarding the overall vinyl system:
Four, double stacked vintage AR-LST speakers.
Two PL700 Series II amps (rebuilt by Ed Blackwood).
Carver 4000 pre-amp. (driving two matched amps, and four matched speakers).
Musical selections were somewhat varied, entire albums played with tracking at 1.25gm, the table was leveled, cartridge double-checked with digital scale, azimuth set by eye, VTA set by eye, S.M.E. cardboard protractor along with a couple of paper protractors used. All factory set-up procedures followed.
Program material;
*Stanley Clarke; If This Bass Could Only Talk
Joni Mitchell; Court and Spark (original 1974 print)
*Dire-Straits; Brothers In Arms, Sultans of Swing
*David Bowie; Nile Rodgers
Stevie Winwood; Back In The High Life (recent reprint)
* Steely Dan; The Royal Scam (original)
*records bought used in good condition, all records cleaned with a VPI 16.5 RCM, and I will test with some "Telarc" classical music recordings and some vintage "Crusaders" jazzie disks tomorrow.
4-30-11
Well today I finally installed a S.M.E 3009 Improved tone arm in one of my SL-1200Mk1 tables. This might make ‘Beatcomer’ and ‘thedelihaus’ somewhat interested?
I decided to use the SL-1200 table that was in the least good condition, this table had a “Black-Widow” with dedicated BW cables, never did listen to it though, as it needs new wires. I, felt since I was basically experimenting and this table already had been altered, why not start there. The Black-Widow came out real easy as I had to install it when I first bought the table and arm as a package for approximately $237. A great deal huh? I know! After that operation I was onto the SME install for about another agonizing 2-3 hours.
Well, first I had to deal with the S.M.E. arm as I wanted to change the original cables to a new RCA retro-fit kit which I paid $25. for and it seemed O.K. as the RCA’s allowed for horizontal fit as compared to vertical augmentation, I felt that would be best as I didn’t want to go thru the hassle with cables and RCA’s possibly being too long causing me to raise the entire table for clearance. I was wrong about that possibility because the SL-120 seems to be deep enough. Removing the original SME four contact terminal was easy although soldering those tiny wires to the retro-fit terminal was a little hairy but I breezed thru that part with minimal effort.
The actual problem here was that I had to bend the cables to fit inside the plinth, not easy with fat or stiff cables. I had some entry-level Vampires around, so I used those, I had really wanted to use my ‘StraightWire’ Symphonies II’s, as I feel they may have sounded better but, they didn’t seem to like bending inside of the plinth with out undue stressing. At this point I was now stressing out cause realizing these problems was saddening for me as I intended to use the best cable versus price, with out getting carried away, although tonite I'm gonna order the ‘Blue-Jeans’ cable as they have very little capacitance and this would be better for any cartridge over all, or so I’ve read. Maybe that’s it, cable quality and capacitance values?
Fast-forward. The S.M.E. is another kind of animal compared to the stock Technics arm, obvious to most, except I waited over 30 years to finally have one. The SME will always take more time to switch cartridges (about 5 minutes or more), whereas the stock arm is a matter of 2 minutes to change cartridge VTA, VTF, etc. I guess I wasn’t ready for that realization and delay in switching and that will always suck! But, just looking at the S.M.E. is thrilling as most will agree for it's a beautiful looking arm, always has been. I trust most know of its highly regarded technical reputation besides.
Comparing the sound of both arms, I feel the SME has finer detailed upper-mids, perhaps a ‘leaner’ and 'bewildering' (bass is somewhat shy, or cleaner, I'm still not sure), and perhaps slightly muted highs, and a some what reticent midrange over all compared to the original odd looking Technics arm? In few words the Technics arm sounded more ‘robust’, more bass 'slam' and rite now I’m leaning towards the Technic’s arm as being more enjoyable. Although I’m sensing the SME may have better transients and cleaner/defined overall presentation but, still seeming leaner sound?
Regarding comparisons in general may be a mistake with out further listening and adjusting. At first I was disappointed by the SME, one hour later I’m feeling different and better. I just know ‘tweaking’ will be a possible horror show with those two different size metric allen wrenches needed? What a drag that appears to be. Higher priced and later arms handled that, while drawing from all of the SME's original features.
For all tests tonite I’m using a AT-440mla, my ‘go-to’ cartridge that I generally use to compare others with. I’d like to try my AT-150MLX, but that’s going to be somewhat of a chore using the SME. I’ve always been the type who loves instant gratification and results in my pleasure seeking quests.
So, in closing, I have a 'constant' with the table and cartridge, the only difference being the SME tone arm. For me, the jury is still ‘out’. Please don’t get me wrong, it sounds great, but so did the old Technics arm surprisingly enough from its appearance. The differences are in brief; the SME seems ‘polite’ and behaved while the Technics arm was more ‘vivid’ and animated. I use the AT-440mla cartridge for similar reasons, I enjoy a sense of 'vividness'.
Did Panasonic/Technics feel that their arm compared favorably with the SME of that period, and is this why they offered the SL-1200Mk1 with and with out their own arm, or was it, solely an over-all sales consideration?
Has anyone out there done the same operation (I’m sure there are hundreds, and I know Technics sold many with this same S.M.E. arm installed), and if so what were the realized observations and opinions? Rite now I feel I’m simply going thru uneasiness and unfamiliarity with a different tone arm, I’m really not sure at this point nor know what to expect, especially after waiting for so many years. Is there a possibility that the two arms actually sound very similar? Hard-to-understand, as they look as different as nite and day and I need more time to evaluate.
I gotta go, excuse me while I go throwing more sides on!
FM
For consideration regarding the overall vinyl system:
Four, double stacked vintage AR-LST speakers.
Two PL700 Series II amps (rebuilt by Ed Blackwood).
Carver 4000 pre-amp. (driving two matched amps, and four matched speakers).
Musical selections were somewhat varied, entire albums played with tracking at 1.25gm, the table was leveled, cartridge double-checked with digital scale, azimuth set by eye, VTA set by eye, S.M.E. cardboard protractor along with a couple of paper protractors used. All factory set-up procedures followed.
Program material;
*Stanley Clarke; If This Bass Could Only Talk
Joni Mitchell; Court and Spark (original 1974 print)
*Dire-Straits; Brothers In Arms, Sultans of Swing
*David Bowie; Nile Rodgers
Stevie Winwood; Back In The High Life (recent reprint)
* Steely Dan; The Royal Scam (original)
*records bought used in good condition, all records cleaned with a VPI 16.5 RCM, and I will test with some "Telarc" classical music recordings and some vintage "Crusaders" jazzie disks tomorrow.
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thedelihaus
Nocturnal transmissions
Frank,
Spend some more time with the SME- I think you'll warm up to it.
Try the 150 on it too- I bet it'll be quite nice!
Spend some more time with the SME- I think you'll warm up to it.
Try the 150 on it too- I bet it'll be quite nice!
Ouch. Hyperbole, much? What embarrassment you must feel, posting such things in public, once you learn that MF made no such pronouncement and in fact stated no preference for any particular drive method. Suggest you read the column he wrote about the Bardo (at least the first 3 paragraphs) ... and remember, mea culpas are free. We'll wait here.
Lets get back on track...
Here is my old M3D on my Ikea lack stand.
I bought this a few years ago off of craigslist totally trashed to make needledrops of my collection of punk and hardcore records from when I was younger.
So far I've replaced the tonearm wiring with the Cardas wire from KAB.
I've also installed the Sorbothane footers, the thick platter mat and the TD-1200 fluid damping setup.
The sorbothane footers nearly eliminated problems with my kids stomping around the house and the TD-1200 has made a huge improvement to level of noise and seems to have made every record a new listening experience.
Next up for this table and few other is some fresh powder coating. I've been powder coating car parts as a hobby for a few years. Here is an extra plinth I picked up to practice on.
Here it is with the paint stripped and blasted. Man was that paint on there...
Here is the color that I'm shooting for. My first attempt came out pretty crappy so I need to strip it and start over.
Here is my old M3D on my Ikea lack stand.
I bought this a few years ago off of craigslist totally trashed to make needledrops of my collection of punk and hardcore records from when I was younger.
So far I've replaced the tonearm wiring with the Cardas wire from KAB.
- At roughly $5 plus shipping and the time to do the install, along with the KAB turret terminal board and the RCA jack plate, it is an awesome upgrade and seriously refined the sound and level of detail heard.
I've also installed the Sorbothane footers, the thick platter mat and the TD-1200 fluid damping setup.
The sorbothane footers nearly eliminated problems with my kids stomping around the house and the TD-1200 has made a huge improvement to level of noise and seems to have made every record a new listening experience.
Next up for this table and few other is some fresh powder coating. I've been powder coating car parts as a hobby for a few years. Here is an extra plinth I picked up to practice on.
Here it is with the paint stripped and blasted. Man was that paint on there...
Here is the color that I'm shooting for. My first attempt came out pretty crappy so I need to strip it and start over.
~ bump ~
beatcomber
AK Member
I doesn't matter how high it cues, as long as it doesn't drag across the record when 'up.'
DonBattles
Well-Known Member
Since I've been officially added to Club 1200 I figured I'd add a picture as well
