The Official Well Tempered Audio Thread

[Mister Pig]

With the Amadeus and likely others (I haven't looked closely) the set up is not difficult but there are some parameters that can leave one guessing. That's another way of saying there are adjustments that aren't black and white.

The bridle filament length can be adjusted to suit a particular cartridge. The fluid cup is adjusted to immerse the golf ball or equivalent fixture to a preferred depth. The tonearm pillar and bridle filament and fluid cup all have undefined optimal settings. VTA and ball/fluid depth are inextricably related for a given amount of fluid. The azimuth collar needs to be set. They can leave a user who prefers exact, prescribed measurements in doubt or maybe just uncomfortable. So hard to set up may be defined differently depending on one's idea of pursuing a specific target. To some these available adjustments would be a source of anxiety, while others would appreciate the flexibility.

The Well Tempered Reference arm is a previous generation, but its very friendly to set up in most respects. The knob on top of the gantry makes the azimuth adjustment a breeze, and you can do it while its playing on a record. If careful, you can even adjust the silicone cup while the turntable is playing and thereby changing the damping and effective mass of the arm. To be honest, I can't see any significant difference in using a golf ball in place of the paddle assembly, as it all has to do with the depth of silicone and how much damping it applies to the golf ball or paddle. In the WTR you can adjust the cup and get the paddle deeper thereby applying more damping, while in the golf ball you add more liquid and possibly increase the filament length to get the ball deeper into the silicone and accomplishing the same thing. But hey I am just a simple pig, so maybe there is a deeper understanding that I am not aware of.

The only adjustment that is truly difficult is overhang. When changing cartridges you have to loosen the bolt that holds the arm base assembly, as you can rotate it and change spindle to pivot length. The head shell only has bolt holes like a SME arm, and therefore you cannot move the cartridge within the headshell. VTA is set by a thumbscrew on the pillar of the table. While there is a numbered scale on the side of the arm to use as a reference, making the adjustment is the old basic lift and lower the arm. I am tempted to get a plastic bike tire changing tool as they can be used as a lever under the base to make fine adjustments instead of trying to raise and lower with only hand movements. Also adjusting the counterweight becomes an acquired skill as the carbon fiber arm tube is a bit rough, so making those tenth of a gram adjustments a bit tedious.

Overall though a very nice arm, and I enjoy using it.

 

[Masonavenut]

I’ve used those bicycle tire changing tools for many things.
That’s another great idea.

 

[Grenadeslio]

The Well Tempered Reference arm is a previous generation, but its very friendly to set up in most respects. The knob on top of the gantry makes the azimuth adjustment a breeze, and you can do it while its playing on a record. If careful, you can even adjust the silicone cup while the turntable is playing and thereby changing the damping and effective mass of the arm. To be honest, I can't see any significant difference in using a golf ball in place of the paddle assembly, as it all has to do with the depth of silicone and how much damping it applies to the golf ball or paddle. In the WTR you can adjust the cup and get the paddle deeper thereby applying more damping, while in the golf ball you add more liquid and possible increase the filament length to get the ball deeper into the silicone and accomplishing the same thing. But hey I am just a simple pig, so maybe there is a deeper understanding that I am not aware of.

The only adjustment that is truly difficult is overhang. When changing cartridges you have to loosen the bolt that holds the arm base assembly, as you can rotate it and change spindle to pivot length. The head shell only has bolt holes like a SME arm, and therefore you cannot move the cartridge within the headshell. VTA is set by a thumbscrew on the pillar of the table. While there is a numbered scale on the side of the arm to use as a reference, making the adjustment is the old basic lift and lower the arm. I am tempted to get a plastic bike tire changing tool as they can be used as a lever under the base to make fine adjustments instead of trying to raise and lower with only hand movements. Also adjusting the counterweight becomes an acquired skill as the carbon fiber arm tube is a bit rough, so making those tenth of a gram adjustments a bit tedious.

Overall though a very nice arm, and I enjoy using it.

on the older arm there is a bit of adjustment at the end of the arm simplifying setup even more, I found setting up the table a breeze really. The nifty cartridge pin connectors another great idea that makes things easier.

I'm really liking using this table, and I have you to thank for this, your purchase made me look at eBay for one.

 

[Vintagear]

I don't see how it is possible to change the effective mass of the WT arm by adjusting the silicone cup as @Mister Pig states. This doesn't make sense since it's the pivot-point, what am I missing?

 

[Grenadeslio]

Oh I believe you , I just thought it seems light for that cart . I owned the F-9 and I honestly forget what I tracked it at , I think around 1.5-1.7 . Either way the Grace carts sound very nice, probably the best mm I’ve heard.

Audiofreak71

I'm sure you're aware the information on these cartridges is little to none existent, until posting it in this thread I wasn't aware of the F-8 stylus line profiles.

Of the Pickering XV15 the D1200 holds its place due to its .002 X .007 nude diamond, now learning the Grace are .002 X .008 I'm not surprised it's held in such high regard. I'm also thinking the F-8C is a lot more cartridge than I was giving it credit.

 

[Audiofreak71]

That Grace carts are imo arguably the top 3 MM carts I have heard and I have owned and heard a lot. They can play just about anything and get very close in detail to a MC cart which IMO is saying a lot because after going MC there aint no going back but if I did the Grace would most likely be my go to.

Audiofreak71

 

[Grenadeslio]

That Grace carts are imo arguably the top 3 MM carts I have heard and I have owned and heard a lot. They can play just about anything and get very close in detail to a MC cart which IMO is saying a lot because after going MC there aint no going back but if I do the Grace would most likely be my go to.

Audiofreak71

Well I do prefer it over my Denon DL301, but it's on a different table no slouch in its own right, but as great as it is it's no WTL, the Kenwood KD770D.

Shown here with a different cart.

 

[Audiofreak71]

Well I do prefer it over my Denon DL301, but it's on a different table no slouch in its own right, but as great as it is it's no WTL, the Kenwood KD770D.

Shown here with a different cart.
View attachment 2114282

Don’t you also have the Grace F10 MC?

Audiofreak71

 

[Grenadeslio]

Don’t you also have the Grace F10 MC?

Audiofreak71

No, just two F-8C Custom purchased NOS, and one F-8L10' Advanced Liminal Trace 10th anniversary cartridge also purchased NOS. Purchased these about 4yrs ago before their prices went crazy, paid no more than $150 for any of them.

 

[Audiofreak71]

No, just two F-8C purchased NOS, and one F-8L10' Advanced Liminal Trace 10th anniversary cartridge also purchased NOS. Purchased these about 4yrs ago before their prices went crazy, paid no more than $150 for any of them.

Ah ok , nice.

Audiofreak71

 

[Masonavenut]

I don't see how it is possible to change the effective mass of the WT arm by adjusting the silicone cup as @Mister Pig states. This doesn't make sense since it's the pivot-point, what am I missing?

I’m going to take a WAG here for the sake of debate and clarity. Raising or lowering the coverage of the golf ball or puck in the extremely viscous silicone will make the arm act differently, in effect changing the EM by its “float” level in the fluid.

 

[Mister Pig]

I don't see how it is possible to change the effective mass of the WT arm by adjusting the silicone cup as @Mister Pig states. This doesn't make sense since it's the pivot-point, what am I missing?

So look at the affect of increased mass of a tone arm. Increase mass and it decreases the ability of the arm to move quickly in the horizontal or vertical plane.

Change the depth of the puck in the silicone of a WT arm and it increases the resistance of the disc to move in the horizontal and vertical plane. The net effect is the same as increased mass of the arm. The arm assembly now needs more energy to move, and acts as a higher mass arm relative to the cartridge.

Then you get into the whole discussion of arm mass and cartridge compliance.

 

[Vintagear]

So look at the affect of increased mass of a tone arm. Increase mass and it decreases the ability of the arm to move quickly in the horizontal or vertical plane.

Change the depth of the puck in the silicone of a WT arm and it increases the resistance of the disc to move in the horizontal and vertical plane. The net effect is the same as increased mass of the arm. The arm assembly now needs more energy to move, and acts as a higher mass arm relative to the cartridge.

Then you get into the whole discussion of arm mass and cartridge compliance.

What you are adding is resistance (not mass). Granted, the added resistance (or friction) in itself will have a similar effect to a higher effective mass arm when It comes to a very specific variable like resonant frequency but one should not confuse that with something specific like effective mass which has its own physical properties (inertia, velocity, etc.)

 

[Grenadeslio]

What you are adding is resistance (not mass). Granted, the added resistance (or friction) in itself will have a similar effect to a higher effective mass arm when It comes to a very specific variable like resonant frequency but one should not confuse that with something specific like effective mass which has its own physical properties (inertia, velocity, etc.)

Which are all affected by adding or subtracting damping fluid to the WTL arm, only one of the many attributes of this ingenious design.

 

[Mister Pig]

What you are adding is resistance (not mass). Granted, the added resistance (or friction) in itself will have a similar effect to a higher effective mass arm when It comes to a very specific variable like resonant frequency but one should not confuse that with something specific like effective mass which has its own physical properties (inertia, velocity, etc.)

The practical function in terms to cartridge performance and compliance will work on terms of what a cartridge needs. I have used low compliance Ikeda, Ortofon, and Koetsu cartridges on WT arms as well as medium compliance Zyx, Ortofon , and Denon cartridges. It works on turns off the cartridge...which is what the context of the discussion is.

 

[Vintagear]

Which are all affected by adding or subtracting damping fluid to the WTL arm, only one of the many attributes of this ingenious design.

They are affected but not in the same way (only part of the equation). Think of it this way, the fluid can only oppose a motion or force but it cannot create one as would the increased mass. Velocity and acceleration will not be the same as with a higher mass arm. To be clear, I'm not saying a higher mass arm is better or worse or knocking this arm in any way. I'm only stating that damping an arm can definitely mitigate an inherent resonant frequency range issue but that does not mean that you are changing the effective mass of that arm.

BTW, I like the execution of the WT arm.

The practical function in terms to cartridge performance and compliance will work on terms of what a cartridge needs. I have used low compliance Ikeda, Ortofon, and Koetsu cartridges on WT arms as well as medium compliance Zyx, Ortofon , and Denon cartridges. It works on turns off the cartridge...which is what the context of the discussion is.

Yes, I think most of us understand that. Regardless, I believe it would have been more accurate if you would have said "If careful, you can even adjust the silicone cup while the turntable is playing and thereby changing the damping "to simulate the resonant frequency of a higher or lower" effective mass of the arm.

Your comment as originally posted actually made me look twice at the details of this arm to see if there was a specific setting I wasn't aware of that would allow you to change the effective mass of the arm. As far as I can tell there is not. In order to change the true effective mass of the arm a change would have to be made away from the pivot point. The further away, the greater the change. Interestingly, I think there was an tonearm (possibly a WT?) that had slider weights on the arm length allowing you to do just that.

As for the context, I hope you don't think I'm nitpicking here but since this is the "Official" WT thread I thought it was important to clarify that the effective mass of the arm is not really what is being changed.

 

[Masonavenut]

In order to change the true effective mass of the arm a change would have to be made away from the pivot point. The further away, the greater the change. Interestingly, I think there was an tonearm (possibly a WT?) that had slider weights on the arm length allowing you to do just that.
.

So my prototype would actually be able to change actual EM because of its ability to make the arm longer or shorter?

 

[Vintagear]

So my prototype would actually be able to change actual EM because of its ability to make the arm longer or shorter?

If the arm tubes are made from the same exact material and the arm-tube filling is the same, then the answer is yes from a physics standpoint. The longer arm will have a higher effective mass.

 

[Mister Pig]

They are affected but not in the same way (only part of the equation). Think of it this way, the fluid can only oppose a motion or force but it cannot create one as would the increased mass. Velocity and acceleration will not be the same as with a higher mass arm. To be clear, I'm not saying a higher mass arm is better or worse or knocking this arm in any way. I'm only stating that damping an arm can definitely mitigate an inherent resonant frequency range issue but that does not mean that you are changing the effective mass of that arm.

BTW, I like the execution of the WT arm.



Yes, I think most of us understand that. Regardless, I believe it would have been more accurate if you would have said "If careful, you can even adjust the silicone cup while the turntable is playing and thereby changing the damping "to simulate the resonant frequency of a higher or lower" effective mass of the arm.

Your comment as originally posted actually made me look twice at the details of this arm to see if there was a specific setting I wasn't aware of that would allow you to change the effective mass of the arm. As far as I can tell there is not. In order to change the true effective mass of the arm a change would have to be made away from the pivot point. The further away, the greater the change. Interestingly, I think there was an tonearm (possibly a WT?) that had slider weights on the arm length allowing you to do just that.

As for the context, I hope you don't think I'm nitpicking here but since this is the "Official" WT thread I thought it was important to clarify that the effective mass of the arm is not really what is being changed.

This certainly is a good discussion to have. Let us look at what the effect of mass is on a tone arm. It is accepted that a low compliance cartridge needs a higher mass to keep the cartridge in control, and we look at the resonant frequency calculation of the arm and cartridge to hit the correct frequency range. But essentially it allows the energy or force the cartridge creates from tracking a musical passage from forcing the arm to resonate and the effect of that resonant frequency on the arm and cartridges ability to keep tracking the record properly. Essentially a feedback loop of energy.

Now in a conventional tone arm fluid damping system there is a trough and pin that is the end point for the energy of the arm and cartridge resonance to be dissipated into. But usually there is a pin that sits in the bath, and it has a minimal effect in the arms ability to move in the horizontal or vertical plane, so it affects effective mass very little. Examples of this can be the fluid baths on a SME V, on the KAB add on for Technics arms, or even the trough used on the Townshend Rock. But this is not the same for the WT arm with the disc in a fluid bath. One arm that is similar in some respects was the early Mission 774, which used different sized paddles in the bath, and you could change the depth of them also. The following qoute was from the Mission product description back in the day:

"The arm employs silicone viscous damping and three different damping paddles are supplied with the 774 to optimize the performance of different cartridges of varying compliance."


The deeper the paddle is the more force is required to get the arm to move in the horizontal or vertical plane. This is very noticeable when you do the drop calculation. The arm is far more resistant to moving, therefore requiring more force to change its position. Now a conventional tone arm has this effect also, or at least in 3 of the 4 directions. The cartridge has to exert more force to move the arm upwards when compared to a lighter mass arm, same for both directions in the horizontal plane. As far as going down, well with conventional bearings its probably going to be faster due to the greater effective mass. So in that regards the WTR design arm is going to be different. One way to look at this is to consider the amount of force needed to push a paddle through water. If you have kayaked you know the width of the paddle blade and how deep you make your stroke ends up requiring a lot more force when you stroke deeper into the water. Just like lowering the WT disc in the bath even deeper.

What does it mean in the practical world? We are not launching rockets to Mars, designing lunar rovers, or diving submarines to the depths of the sea. No we are playing records. The effect is the arm acts like a higher mass arm, and is more capable of playing a lower compliance cartridge than one would expect. Also the arm is loaded with sand, and a carbon fiber tube, so the arm tube does not ring either. Once again the point being its capable of using low compliance cartridges like the early Ikeda, or Denons and get the potential out of them. I have owned high mass arms like the Acos GST 801, I have owned fluid damped arms such as a SME V and the Townshend Rock arrangement with the RB301 installed. The WTR arm acts very differently than those fluid damped arms. Its more like the 801 than anything else is. And when you raise the paddle, its amazing how much more responsive the arm gets. I have it almost all the way out of the bath when I have a ZYX 4D installed, which is a medium compliance cartridge.

Those are my experiences as a user.

 

[Vintagear]

This certainly is a good discussion to have. Let us look at what the effect of mass is on a tone arm. It is accepted that a low compliance cartridge needs a higher mass to keep the cartridge in control, and we look at the resonant frequency calculation of the arm and cartridge to hit the correct frequency range. But essentially it allows the energy or force the cartridge creates from tracking a musical passage from forcing the arm to resonate and the effect of that resonant frequency on the arm and cartridges ability to keep tracking the record properly. Essentially a feedback loop of energy.

Now in a conventional tone arm fluid damping system there is a trough and pin that is the end point for the energy of the arm and cartridge resonance to be dissipated into. But usually there is a pin that sits in the bath, and it has a minimal effect in the arms ability to move in the horizontal or vertical plane, so it affects effective mass very little. Examples of this can be the fluid baths on a SME V, on the KAB add on for Technics arms, or even the trough used on the Townshend Rock. But this is not the same for the WT arm with the disc in a fluid bath. One arm that is similar in some respects was the early Mission 774, which used different sized paddles in the bath, and you could change the depth of them also. The following qoute was from the Mission product description back in the day:

"The arm employs silicone viscous damping and three different damping paddles are supplied with the 774 to optimize the performance of different cartridges of varying compliance."


The deeper the paddle is the more force is required to get the arm to move in the horizontal or vertical plane. This is very noticeable when you do the drop calculation. The arm is far more resistant to moving, therefore requiring more force to change its position. Now a conventional tone arm has this effect also, or at least in 3 of the 4 directions. The cartridge has to exert more force to move the arm upwards when compared to a lighter mass arm, same for both directions in the horizontal plane. As far as going down, well with conventional bearings its probably going to be faster due to the greater effective mass. So in that regards the WTR design arm is going to be different. One way to look at this is to consider the amount of force needed to push a paddle through water. If you have kayaked you know the width of the paddle blade and how deep you make your stroke ends up requiring a lot more force when you stroke deeper into the water. Just like lowering the WT disc in the bath even deeper.

What does it mean in the practical world? We are not launching rockets to Mars, designing lunar rovers, or diving submarines to the depths of the sea. No we are playing records. The effect is the arm acts like a higher mass arm, and is more capable of playing a lower compliance cartridge than one would expect. Also the arm is loaded with sand, and a carbon fiber tube, so the arm tube does not ring either. Once again the point being its capable of using low compliance cartridges like the early Ikeda, or Denons and get the potential out of them. I have owned high mass arms like the Acos GST 801, I have owned fluid damped arms such as a SME V and the Townshend Rock arrangement with the RB301 installed. The WTR arm acts very differently than those fluid damped arms. Its more like the 801 than anything else is. And when you raise the paddle, its amazing how much more responsive the arm gets. I have it almost all the way out of the bath when I have a ZYX 4D installed, which is a medium compliance cartridge.

Those are my experiences as a user.

I'm not sure how any of that changes or disputes what I said or agree with. You just seem to be restating what is understood. What has not changed is that the level of damping does not change the true effective mass of a tonearm.