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The one watt lie….

I agree with this. A good system should sound just as good at lower volume as it does at higher volume.

And that is one of the issues with discussions like this. We don't all listen the same way. When I was younger it was all about volume, headroom and ample watts. Now I am older, I live in an apartment building and I listen at 60 to 70 dB usually. My systems all sound good at those levels. Not thin or missing anything. And that is how it should be. And I rarely even push half of a watt. So that works for me.

Now if someone consistently listens at higher volumes then power matters more. Also if one has hard to drive speakers. But neither of those two things even applies to me...

60-70db is really low. I would suspect that you dont live in the city. Thats because I am assuming it must be fairly quiet over all where you are. Thats cool.
I have never experienced higher power amplifiers doing anything better than lower power amplifiers, except being able to play louder (if the speakers are up to it) than I need or want.
I have had one amplifier sound fuller than another amplifier with the same watts, I have had lower power amplifiers sound fuller than higher power amplifiers.
I have had higher and lower power amplifiers that had delicacy and air (granted the higher power amplifiers that did this were not inexpensive).

As 62caddy alluded to, all of the above is with the amplifiers running within their power limits.

Thats interesting. I get a fuller body to the sound. Better timbre with grand pianos and stand up bass. With electronic music, it digs deeper and produces incredible detail on Kraftwerk, Gary Numan and the like. I also hear deep and nuanced low freqency information from Billie Eilish amd Awol Nation.
 
Thats interesting. I get a fuller body to the sound. Better timbre with grand pianos and stand up bass. With electronic music, it digs deeper and produces incredible detail on Kraftwerk, Gary Numan and the like. I also hear deep and nuanced low freqency information from Billie Eilish amd Awol Nation.

What kind of power difference are you talking?
Are you comparing apples to apples? Different types of amplifiers?
Are you turning it up more without realizing it? After all you have "more" power.

Some one in an older thread posted how they went from a 100w receiver to a 200w amplifier, they attributed all of the improvement to more power. I asked if they tried the amplifier company's lower power amplifier, didn't receive an answer, but I bet if they had the same results would have occurred. They were not strictly comparing power, it was a host of things.
 
Louder seems to be the word most spoken, I might play my system loud once or twice a month. It's difficult to put a word on what I'm looking for weight, feel, gut, meat.

:idea:

Wouldn't fly in an apartment even at low volume.
 
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What kind of power difference are you talking?
Are you comparing apples to apples? Different types of amplifiers?
Are you turning it up more without realizing it? After all you have "more" power.

Some one in an older thread posted how they went from a 100w receiver to a 200w amplifier, they attributed all of the improvement to more power. I asked if they tried the amplifier company's lower power amplifier, didn't receive an answer, but I bet if they had the same results would have occurred. They were not strictly comparing power, it was a host of things.

its been a long journey. I’ll keep it with one set of speakers, the Zu Omen Def MkII with Radian 850 tweeter upgrade and Clarity caps.


Amps used

Amps and Sound 5 wpc tube amp
First Watt F8 SS 25 wpc
Audion Super Sterling 24 wpc SEP tube amps
Kinergistic Research Class A SS 75 wpc
Audio Research 80 wpc
Audio Research 100 wpc
Modwright KWA100SE 140 wpc
Pass Labs SS 150 wpc

Im probably missing a couple, but I was able to try all these with the speaker I mentioned.

All the amps are unique to themselves, but as the wattage goes below 40 wpc, the weight, body and tonality gets thinner.
 
Some one in an older thread posted how they went from a 100w receiver to a 200w amplifier, they attributed all of the improvement to more power.

That wasn't me, but I had a similar experience with a pair of KEF. Went from one MC2125 to two MC2125 bridged, the difference in the speakers was phenomenal with the extra power. Granted, they are a hungry speaker, but there's truth in the power & performance anecdotes that you hear from some of us.

That being said, one of the amps went into storage when I switched to the Altecs, and I very, very seldom show >1W on the meters when I listen. If my stereo didn't sound great at lower volumes, I wouldn't own it -- nice to know I could blow the windows out too if I wanted I guess. :D Cheers!
 
its been a long journey. I’ll keep it with one set of speakers, the Zu Omen Def MkII with Radian 850 tweeter upgrade and Clarity caps.


Amps used

Amps and Sound 5 wpc tube amp
First Watt F8 SS 25 wpc
Audion Super Sterling 24 wpc SEP tube amps
Kinergistic Research Class A SS 75 wpc
Audio Research 80 wpc
Audio Research 100 wpc
Modwright KWA100SE 140 wpc
Pass Labs SS 150 wpc

Im probably missing a couple, but I was able to try all these with the speaker I mentioned.

All the amps are unique to themselves, but as the wattage goes below 40 wpc, the weight, body and tonality gets thinner.

Perhaps I should have tried a high power amp with the Omens as their drivers are pro-audio based. I think Sean even recommends pairing them with AV receivers. Sadly in my experience they were not nearly as detailed or refined as the other speakers shown here. My rationale for selling the Zu's was that if they weren't resolving with a SET amp they weren't for me. Since I discovered SET amps it has always been about finding speakers that match well with them. You might value the big jukebox sound of the Zu's whereas I'm more interested in inner detail such as hearing the spit in Miles Davis' trumpet or the wood in a double bass. The speaker/amp combinations we choose should mirror our tastes in music.

P6130005.jpeg
 
A couple of points here about low volumes and speaker "fullness" -- first, the human ear is hardly linear in response to sound, and perceived sound level drops off very quickly at low frequencies. What that effect does is reduce the perception of bass as volume goes down, and how much is "lost" depends greatly on any individual's hearing status and sensitivity (which is highly variable even with young ears). I never use the loudness controls, which are specifically designed to compensate for this hearing effect (not audio, SPL meters will still show the bass is present, but many people cannot HEAR it). Too much boom for me, I seem to have, even at 66, very sensitive low frequency hearing -- I can actually just barely hear 15 Hz from my Kennys with HPM-500 speakers from one of my test albums. My friend the musician cannot, at all. 20 Hz is clear for me, almost inaudible for him. The same is true of higher frequency sounds, but the effect is less. Also highly dependent upon individual hearing ability and condition of your ears (and age, alas).

The second point is that modern living beats the living snot out of human hearing. Even living fairly far out in the country (less far out than 50 years ago, sadly) I am doused with noise. I can hear the train a mile away right now, for instance -- further probably, it's blowing for the crossing a mile up the road plus a mile to the East of me. Driving is noisy, cars are noisy, my workplace has computers and instruments with fans running, there are aircraft above me all the time and I can hear them (definitely noticed a difference after 9/11 when they were not there), and so forth. I have lost nearly all hearing above 12kHz, which is annoying, but what I have left seems to be quite good as far as sound perception, and I'm working to keep that! I almost always wear earplugs where there is live music or a DJ, sound levels these days are insane. Most of us are exposed to far too much random noise, and most of us over the age of 60 have some hearing loss. Many of us have significant hearing loss without knowing it.

So bottom line, it doesn't surprise me when people want more power, as they are needing to compensate for their particular hearing, speakers, and room. I'm finding so far that I don't hear differences in amplifiers so much. However, I suspect that most of us are still really in that first watt most of the time.

Note when someone talks about "feeling" a piano vibrate the floor and want to replicate that with a recording, they are going to be badly disappointed by any speaker system -- it's the strings in the piano strings vibrating the piano and hence floor, and no speaker is ever going to do that, it's purely mechanical transmission and speakers have diaphragms vibrating in air, not metal strings attached to a cast iron sound board. No reproduction system will give the same mechanical transmission of sound percussive instruments so, it's just not going to happen. Boosting bass just makes the air transmitted vibrations louder, it's never going to replicate the transmission of the vibrations through solids.
 
Well, the first watt sure means a lot to me because I don't usually use much more than that except maybe on transients, and even then I don't use a lot because I don't like loud thumping bass.

If I need 100 watts to "open up a speaker", excuse me while I go get my 25dB down ear plugs and a pair of muffs......

I typically listen at about 70 to 80 dB. That has nothing to do with the amp power, just the volume level.
If I still had my Magneplanars I would not be happy with my 2A3 amp driving them. They really didn't work well with low powered amps. I had great results using Meridian 100 watt amps.
When I started to move toward higher sensitivity speakers, I found I could use lower powered amps but that the sound was still more satisfying with higher powered amps. Note that this is still at the same 70 to 80 dB average level, you wouldn't need the ear plugs.
I've read some posts here that say they can't play that loud because of living situation or that they don't care for much bass or that the midrange is all important. My preference is as stated and it's totally subjective so it's neither right nor wrong. It's just personal preference as are virtually all things audio related.
 
All the amps are unique to themselves, but as the wattage goes below 40 wpc, the weight, body and tonality gets thinner.

If that indeed is the case, either there's something faulty with the < 40 wpc units you were using or were poorly designed to begin with. I would also suggest using an amplifier switcher allowing for instantaneous A/B comparisons between various amplifiers and with someone else toggling between the two units (so that you have no knowledge of which playing) see whether you're able to discern one from the other.

Not to spoil the surprise, prepare to be humbled. I know I have.
 
Well, the first watt sure means a lot to me because I don't usually use much more than that except maybe on transients, and even then I don't use a lot because I don't like loud thumping bass.

If I need 100 watts to "open up a speaker", excuse me while I go get my 25dB down ear plugs and a pair of muffs......

I don’t listen to loud thumping bass, either, but it’s peaks in the midrange (e.g. female vocals, choral music, piano music) that seem to push my amplifiers.
 
That wasn't me, but I had a similar experience with a pair of KEF. Went from one MC2125 to two MC2125 bridged, the difference in the speakers was phenomenal with the extra power.

As the owner of two MC2125s myself, I find this claim highly dubious provided the single MC2125 wasn't driven beyond its limits. If I'm wrong, the only logical conclusion is that McIntosh had been falsifying equipment specs which we all know is untrue.

Incidentally the MC2125 is designed mono parallel which is different from bridging.
 
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