Christmas is over, it's cold up here and I hate winter. On top of that I'm retired now..... why do we have to wait 6 months?
The one watt lie….
- Thread starter 6.5CM
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Christmas is over, it's cold up here and I hate winter. On top of that I'm retired now..... why do we have to wait 6 months?
3 dBs, same as 1 watt to 2 watts or 500 watts to 1,000 watts.
Not a big deal in the overall scheme.
3 dBs, same as 1 watt to 2 watts or 500 watts to 1,000 watts.
Not a big deal in the overall scheme.
Not in the real world. At 1 to 2 watts, any quality speaker is just loafing along. If you go from 500 - 1,000 watts, I'm betting that any commercially available speaker is going to be compressing at that level of power and when this happens, no you do not pick up 3 dB per doubling of the power. Speakers typically start to compress notably at <25% of their rated power.
At 1 to 2 watts any quality speaker is just loafing along, what does even mean and what does that have to do with anything?
I know that the vast majority of speakers compress way before 500w to 1,000w, but the purpose of my post was to show the person I quoted that going from 120w to 240w is a minuscule difference in the real world.
They were all examples of a 3 dB increase. dBW is a better way to understand differences in wattage.
Are the meters accurate?
How about 2 watts?
When I had Klipsch H1s my Grommes PHI-26 set EL84 at 2 watts seemed like 200.
How about 2 watts?
When I had Klipsch H1s my Grommes PHI-26 set EL84 at 2 watts seemed like 200.
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Roadrash
Super Member
Kenwood was well known for making precision laboratory electronics so I would think the meters on their 'statement' amps would be at least fairly accurate. What I would consider normal volumes (60 to 70dbs and yes I've checked with an actual meter not a phone app) seated about 15 feet from the speakers was averaging 10 watts. Getting up into the 90 plus range was 30 watts on average with higher peaks. I'm not saying more efficient speakers with low watt amps don't work, just that the flea watt amps aren't going to cut it with my speakers in my room. FWIW I spent many hours with these speakers behind a 45 wpc Onkyo A5 and they sounded fine, but nothing compares to the nearly limitless headroom of the Kenwoods. YMMVAre they accurate?
How about 2 watts?
It means that at that power level, one could expect a 3 dB increase because the speaker is nowhere near it's tolerances for heat or displacement restriction caused from the spider and surround nearing their limits (i.e., just loafing along). Going from 500 to 1,000 watts, anything on the market is going to compress, if it could even survive this, and you won't get a 3 dB increase.
That's the real world. Is that so difficult to understand?
It has nothing to do with the point I was making to the member I quoted.
I'm not going to make a 20 paragraph post with references to peer reviewed papers to cover all the variables just to make a point about 120w and 240w not being much different.
That dude’s gonna argue the colour of the sky with you, it ain’t worth the time.
I wasn't arguing with him, I just didn't understand what his point was and after he explained it, I explained why it didn't have anything to do with the point I was making.
mashaffer
Super Member
This is a point often missed in these discussions. The more power you are putting into a loudspeaker the more diminishing returns you get not only due to excursion but also voice coil heating. Dynamics at high volume levels will be negatively effected by voice coil heating generally to a greater degree the lower the speaker's sensitivity. At low volume power reserve A.K.A. dynamic headroom can be useful but especially at lower frequencies it will be limited by the mechanical limits of the driver again more so with smaller drivers than with larger ones.
So in my opinion for any given room size larger more efficient drivers are to be desired from a dynamics stand point. And such speakers greatly reduce the need for gargantuan amplifiers to beat them into submission. Obviously there are tradeoffs.
kyle
Super Member
I think that this is not a good comparison. If a particular speaker has 90dB sensitivity and you are playing music at an average 90dB level, it doesn't matter if an amp has 1000 watts or 10 watts available. The output is still 90dB average. The only real advantage with higher powered amps is headroom available for peaks and possibly better current delivery for speakers that require it.
Different speakers have differing levels of thermal compression onset. For some speakers the 10 watt amps available power could be the limiting factor and allow only about 100dB of output while the 1000 watt amp could cause thermal compression limiting the output to 120dB. That's more output in dB but the 10 watt amp doesn't have the power available to create the thermal compression and may have a better sound because of that at the upper limits of the amps.
Just my opinion. Flame away.
DeFriend
Active Member
My 4ft tall by 8ft wide rockwool absorption that averages 7in thick behind my listening position surely acts as negative watts.
a speaker wont put out the same db output at all freqencies at 1 watt. Efficiency ratings are usually for 1khz.
if a speaker is already pulling 3/4 watt at 90db playing strings, its gonna need more power to reproduce a timpani drum crescendo
This doesn't make sense, how does the amplifier know to provide more watts to frequencies that need them?
A balanced speaker will put out the same dB at most frequencies with the same input. Yes their are variances, no speaker is perfectly flat and most don't want it to be all the way up to 20k.
A quick look at a few Stereophile measurements showed 1k had no more to do with the rated sensitivity than the other frequencies.
lower frequencies take up more power to reproduce at the same spl.
just look at tweeters, woofers, three way powered systems and subwoofers and their power ratings. its for a reason.
I just realized you've been debating this subject extensively, and you dont grasp this fundamental scientific fact. that is a big gap right there.
https://stampsound.com/this-is-why-bass-amps-need-more-wattage/#:~:text=Bass amps need more wattage because low-end frequency waveforms,tones produced by the instrument.
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I think you are talking about 2 different things in your own posts.
Pick out any random woofer on Madisound (or wherever) and look at the frequency response graph, they will usually say at the bottom- IEC baffle (small flat baffle so below 100hz will roll off), a distance, SPL for 2.83v/1m.
BTW it is sensitivity.
Thats cool man. I aint gonna debate it. I'll leave you with this though. Any speaker is a dynamic load. It will pull what it needs to reproduce a particular frequency. And the lower frequency it is, the more power is required. Its basic physics. More work, requires more power. Low frequencies (longer frequencies) require more work. Best, 6
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