Robergé
Active Member
Should be able to do it later this week, scale goes to hundredth of a gram.
The P-Mount owners club
- Thread starter Bourbon
- Start date
ignoramustot
Active Member
Greetings from Melbourne Australia, I hope the esteemed long-established P-Mount Owners Club is still accepting newbie members, please?
I acquired a Technics SL-7 linear tracking TT a couple of years ago that I run alongside a restored Dual 1219, two rather different era automatics, each with their charms, and each built solidly in very different ways!
The SL-7 came with its original Technics P202C cartridge, but had lost its original stylus with the lovely boron pipe cantilever along the way and had a rather sorry excuse for a cheap generic conical stylus on it.
I had the SL-7 serviced for lubrication, new tonearm drive belt, etc, not long after I bought it. Without the budget for a JICO stylus for the P202, the quickest and cheapest way to get the SL-7 back in service in a reliable T4P spec was the ubiquitous Audio-Technica AT81CP with itys standard conical stylus.
Subsequently I upgraded that AT81 cartridge with a new ATN3472SE elliptical stylus, which I thought a big improvement over the standard conical, but is still somewhat lacking in both sound "body" and finesse compared with the AT-VM95ML that I usually run on the Dual 1219, or the fabulous Micro-Acoustics MA380 that's been on the Dual more recently.
More recently I have bought a couple of other vintage T4P carts and styli to try, some of which are NOS, and one rescue job by Groovetickler of a Pickering TL-3S, although I haven't got around to mounting any of them yet. (I'll post further details of what's sitting on the shelf in a follow-up post.)
My specific questions today are regarding Shure P-mount cartridges and styli suitable for the SL-7.
As a cheaper entry point to the world of Shure P-mounts, I recently bought a cheap used Shure Realistic RXT6 catridge and what seems to be its original stylus, in what appears to be OK condition. And then I realised (after it was paid for and already in the mail to me) that the swing-down stylus guard with the little brush that's on the RXT6 stylus grip seems to make it too wide for the SL-7's tonearm to park properly in its far-right position above the outer track of an LP. Ooops.
OK, lesson learned, avoid Shure P-mount styli with the swing-down stylus guard and brush if installing on an SL-7 or similar.
But then I "got very lucky" and found a NIB/NOS Shure N97LT stylus, which does not have the guard and brush and so is sufficiently narrow to not interfere with the SL-7's tonearm parking. It was a very reasonable price, is in its original box with specs sheet etc, and it really does look unused. Seems to have the telescoped cantilever, too, which I think indicates original US production if I understand various postings from the Shure experts around AK and other fora.
It seems to fit the RXT6 cart well, so I look forward to mounting it and trying it in the next week or so.
My questions to the Shure P-mount experts, please, all in the context of the use case is an SL-7 linear tracker (which can only use T4P):
1. Cart: Is the RXT6 cart a good way to enjoy this N97LT stylus, or would there be any significant benefts from running it on another Shure T4P cart (M96LT etc), an M111 or M110, RXT5, DT25P/35P, Presence 8 or other Shure T4P cart?
(One consideration for me here is perhaps selling the RXT6 intact with its too-wide headshell to someone who can make better use of it on a different turntable.)
There's a lot of forum postings over the years about whether (excluding differences in styli) there were/are any real differences between the various Shure T4P carts (V15LT apart). I'm not sure where the investigations of this by various expert members over the past 2 decades eventually settled... Something about the N97 ERA IV carts being regarded as superior by some members, but not by others?
2. Stylus: Given the rarity of my NOS N97LT stylus, I think I should obtain a back-up for it. What would be a good brushless equivalent Shure T4P stylus for the SL-7? I'm keen to get a hyperelliptical or better such as a nude hyperelliptical or line contact, etc. with similarly high compliance / trackability to the N97LT. From the specs published by Shure, it seems that the N110HE stylus is identical to the N97LT, and with a similarly brushless and narrow grip (unlike the N111HE), so that's one option - correct? Any others that are recommended, or do I need to dig into generic replacements for the N97LT or the N111HE?
I'd be very grateful to benefit from any members with relevent real-world experience, please.
(BTW I still have the Technics P202 cart and just last week I found an unused Goldring EP-202ED elliptical stylus to try on it, but that's another story for another time...)
Cheers and many thanks,
Rob in Melbourne
I acquired a Technics SL-7 linear tracking TT a couple of years ago that I run alongside a restored Dual 1219, two rather different era automatics, each with their charms, and each built solidly in very different ways!
The SL-7 came with its original Technics P202C cartridge, but had lost its original stylus with the lovely boron pipe cantilever along the way and had a rather sorry excuse for a cheap generic conical stylus on it.
I had the SL-7 serviced for lubrication, new tonearm drive belt, etc, not long after I bought it. Without the budget for a JICO stylus for the P202, the quickest and cheapest way to get the SL-7 back in service in a reliable T4P spec was the ubiquitous Audio-Technica AT81CP with itys standard conical stylus.
Subsequently I upgraded that AT81 cartridge with a new ATN3472SE elliptical stylus, which I thought a big improvement over the standard conical, but is still somewhat lacking in both sound "body" and finesse compared with the AT-VM95ML that I usually run on the Dual 1219, or the fabulous Micro-Acoustics MA380 that's been on the Dual more recently.
More recently I have bought a couple of other vintage T4P carts and styli to try, some of which are NOS, and one rescue job by Groovetickler of a Pickering TL-3S, although I haven't got around to mounting any of them yet. (I'll post further details of what's sitting on the shelf in a follow-up post.)
My specific questions today are regarding Shure P-mount cartridges and styli suitable for the SL-7.
As a cheaper entry point to the world of Shure P-mounts, I recently bought a cheap used Shure Realistic RXT6 catridge and what seems to be its original stylus, in what appears to be OK condition. And then I realised (after it was paid for and already in the mail to me) that the swing-down stylus guard with the little brush that's on the RXT6 stylus grip seems to make it too wide for the SL-7's tonearm to park properly in its far-right position above the outer track of an LP. Ooops.
OK, lesson learned, avoid Shure P-mount styli with the swing-down stylus guard and brush if installing on an SL-7 or similar.But then I "got very lucky" and found a NIB/NOS Shure N97LT stylus, which does not have the guard and brush and so is sufficiently narrow to not interfere with the SL-7's tonearm parking. It was a very reasonable price, is in its original box with specs sheet etc, and it really does look unused. Seems to have the telescoped cantilever, too, which I think indicates original US production if I understand various postings from the Shure experts around AK and other fora.
It seems to fit the RXT6 cart well, so I look forward to mounting it and trying it in the next week or so.My questions to the Shure P-mount experts, please, all in the context of the use case is an SL-7 linear tracker (which can only use T4P):
1. Cart: Is the RXT6 cart a good way to enjoy this N97LT stylus, or would there be any significant benefts from running it on another Shure T4P cart (M96LT etc), an M111 or M110, RXT5, DT25P/35P, Presence 8 or other Shure T4P cart?
(One consideration for me here is perhaps selling the RXT6 intact with its too-wide headshell to someone who can make better use of it on a different turntable.)
There's a lot of forum postings over the years about whether (excluding differences in styli) there were/are any real differences between the various Shure T4P carts (V15LT apart). I'm not sure where the investigations of this by various expert members over the past 2 decades eventually settled... Something about the N97 ERA IV carts being regarded as superior by some members, but not by others?
2. Stylus: Given the rarity of my NOS N97LT stylus, I think I should obtain a back-up for it. What would be a good brushless equivalent Shure T4P stylus for the SL-7? I'm keen to get a hyperelliptical or better such as a nude hyperelliptical or line contact, etc. with similarly high compliance / trackability to the N97LT. From the specs published by Shure, it seems that the N110HE stylus is identical to the N97LT, and with a similarly brushless and narrow grip (unlike the N111HE), so that's one option - correct? Any others that are recommended, or do I need to dig into generic replacements for the N97LT or the N111HE?
I'd be very grateful to benefit from any members with relevent real-world experience, please.
(BTW I still have the Technics P202 cart and just last week I found an unused Goldring EP-202ED elliptical stylus to try on it, but that's another story for another time...)
Cheers and many thanks,
Rob in Melbourne
Welcome to the thread, Rob. As fellow owners of Shure p-mounts (not to mention Audio-Technica and Technics), we feel your pain. You'll get lots of suggestions, I'm certain.
First, I should tell you that you can remove the brush. Obviously, there's some risk involved any time fingers get near cantilevers, but Shure's brush is held on strictly by the spring tension of the thin metal arms that go from the pivots to the brush's plastic frame. Pull one of the arms off its little stub, then the other, and keep your RXT6, whose body is, within tolerances, the same as any other Shure p-mount body. Some trimming of the stylus grip's extraneous plastic may still be needed-- let us know if you try this.
That, or put the RXT6 into its adapter and use it in your Dual.
Some quick thoughts:
As for replacements for the N97LT, see if you can find the N96LT elliptical as a placeholder while you search. JICO used to make an excellent copy of the N97LT; you might still find one of those. N97LT is Era IV and N110HE is Era V but they're equivalent if not precisely identical. The N75HE is another possibility. Download the 1982 "Shure Replacement Stylus Guide" pdf, which will act as a brochure and let you shop around. Hyperelliptical styli are brought together on page 5 (the N110HE isn't shown).
The one you really want is the VNSE3HP stylus for the VST III-P, the p-mount version of the VST III. Beryllium-foil cantilever goodness, but that might be hard to find these days.
First, I should tell you that you can remove the brush. Obviously, there's some risk involved any time fingers get near cantilevers, but Shure's brush is held on strictly by the spring tension of the thin metal arms that go from the pivots to the brush's plastic frame. Pull one of the arms off its little stub, then the other, and keep your RXT6, whose body is, within tolerances, the same as any other Shure p-mount body. Some trimming of the stylus grip's extraneous plastic may still be needed-- let us know if you try this.
That, or put the RXT6 into its adapter and use it in your Dual.
Some quick thoughts:
As for replacements for the N97LT, see if you can find the N96LT elliptical as a placeholder while you search. JICO used to make an excellent copy of the N97LT; you might still find one of those. N97LT is Era IV and N110HE is Era V but they're equivalent if not precisely identical. The N75HE is another possibility. Download the 1982 "Shure Replacement Stylus Guide" pdf, which will act as a brochure and let you shop around. Hyperelliptical styli are brought together on page 5 (the N110HE isn't shown).
The one you really want is the VNSE3HP stylus for the VST III-P, the p-mount version of the VST III. Beryllium-foil cantilever goodness, but that might be hard to find these days.
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ignoramustot
Active Member
Hi Walter,
thank you very much for the welcome and suggestions. I've read many of the interesting and helpful posts that you and others have made on this and related topics, so I'm chuffed to have your response to my questions.
I don't need to replace the N97LT yet - in fact I haven't even used it yet - more that I am thinking that these things grow rarer by the day and perhaps I should lay in a back-up sooner rather than later. I had already downloaded the Shure stylus guide and catalogues and also the stylus user manuals, which was what led me to the N110HE as the stylus closest to the N97LT.
I had wondered whether the flip-down stylus guard and brush on the RXT6 stylus grip are removable. Thanks for your advice on that. I have large and clumsy hands and fingers so I will proceed very carefully on that, if at all.
Unfortunately the RXT6 didn't have its ½-inch adaptor when I bought it. I'm happy with the range of carts and styli that I have for my Dual (including a Grace F8L-10 and a couple of Micro-Acoustics with their original beryllium cantilevers - yum) so I don't think the Shure will end up there.
Hence my thinking that maybe I should resell the unmolested RXT6 to someone who wants it as-is, and look for another Shure T4P cart, with or without stylus suitable for the SL-7.
I see a few RXT5, DT and Presence carts without styli are available for sale at the moment for reasonably modest outlay. Are they all Era V like the RXT6?
Are the M92LT, M94LT and M96LT carts all Era IV, and perhaps better suited to giving my N97LT stylus its originally intended voice?
Thanks again,
Rob
thank you very much for the welcome and suggestions. I've read many of the interesting and helpful posts that you and others have made on this and related topics, so I'm chuffed to have your response to my questions.
I don't need to replace the N97LT yet - in fact I haven't even used it yet - more that I am thinking that these things grow rarer by the day and perhaps I should lay in a back-up sooner rather than later. I had already downloaded the Shure stylus guide and catalogues and also the stylus user manuals, which was what led me to the N110HE as the stylus closest to the N97LT.
I had wondered whether the flip-down stylus guard and brush on the RXT6 stylus grip are removable. Thanks for your advice on that. I have large and clumsy hands and fingers so I will proceed very carefully on that, if at all.
Unfortunately the RXT6 didn't have its ½-inch adaptor when I bought it. I'm happy with the range of carts and styli that I have for my Dual (including a Grace F8L-10 and a couple of Micro-Acoustics with their original beryllium cantilevers - yum) so I don't think the Shure will end up there.
Hence my thinking that maybe I should resell the unmolested RXT6 to someone who wants it as-is, and look for another Shure T4P cart, with or without stylus suitable for the SL-7.
I see a few RXT5, DT and Presence carts without styli are available for sale at the moment for reasonably modest outlay. Are they all Era V like the RXT6?
Are the M92LT, M94LT and M96LT carts all Era IV, and perhaps better suited to giving my N97LT stylus its originally intended voice?
Thanks again,
Rob
First, thanks for the kind words. Second, go ahead and sell the RXT6 on, if only to avoid sidelining a usable stylus. Someone will snap it right up.
Yes, the RXT5, DT and the Presence 500S (and more) can be considered Era V, and most of the Presences and all the -LT bodies are Era IV. Almost always, it's interfering bits of plastic stuck on the body shells that make the difference. Electrically, they can all be considered the same, though there are a handful that actually measure different. It's not enough to make an audible = significant difference, so no, you don't have to have an Era IV body for that Era IV stylus.
However, sometimes you have to remove the interfering plastic. Some are reluctant to do that, so for them I recommend Era V bodies which often have no extra plastic on them at all. Still, I understand the urge to have everything just as Shure intended. And some of the Era IV models looked pretty slick.
Yes, the RXT5, DT and the Presence 500S (and more) can be considered Era V, and most of the Presences and all the -LT bodies are Era IV. Almost always, it's interfering bits of plastic stuck on the body shells that make the difference. Electrically, they can all be considered the same, though there are a handful that actually measure different. It's not enough to make an audible = significant difference, so no, you don't have to have an Era IV body for that Era IV stylus.
However, sometimes you have to remove the interfering plastic. Some are reluctant to do that, so for them I recommend Era V bodies which often have no extra plastic on them at all. Still, I understand the urge to have everything just as Shure intended. And some of the Era IV models looked pretty slick.
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lini
just me...
You sure about that, Walt? Because I don't think, that woud work.
No worries, Rob - membership in this case should simply work by self-declaration. So just declare yourself a member, and in the club you are.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
ignoramustot
Active Member
My lucky day to be drawing assistance from both Walter and Lini on the same day!
I read this thread about the Shure LT series that dates from over a decade ago and learned a lot from the respectful discussion and sharing there. https://audiokarma.org/forums/threads/shure-lt-series-cartridge-photos-specifications.546746/
I see you were both active contributors to that, along with many other members.
Thanks, Gents!
I read this thread about the Shure LT series that dates from over a decade ago and learned a lot from the respectful discussion and sharing there. https://audiokarma.org/forums/threads/shure-lt-series-cartridge-photos-specifications.546746/
I see you were both active contributors to that, along with many other members.
Thanks, Gents!
FWIW, I had a Technics SL-7 and purchased an NOS Shure M111E (I think, I may have the designation a little off). My tech - the best in the Midwest - had to shave off the little "wings" on both sides of the Shure to get it to work with the SL-7. And it sounded pretty good, but I could not help but think that the reduced weight made it no longer quite adherent to the TP4 standard. So I sold the Shure.
I now have a technics SL-QD33, own several TP4 cartridges (Signet TK8LCp, Stanton L737S (which I LOVE), Grado Red3 w 8mz stylus, Audio Technica AT216EP, the P-mount version of the Pickering XSV-3000, and an Ortofon TM-14 with a decent aftermarket stylus). But I don't have a Shure, and would love to have one.
I now have a technics SL-QD33, own several TP4 cartridges (Signet TK8LCp, Stanton L737S (which I LOVE), Grado Red3 w 8mz stylus, Audio Technica AT216EP, the P-mount version of the Pickering XSV-3000, and an Ortofon TM-14 with a decent aftermarket stylus). But I don't have a Shure, and would love to have one.
ignoramustot
Active Member
Hi Tom
Thanks for sharing your experience . Were those little "wings" perhaps the remnants of the N111E stylus grip after the swing-down stylus protector and brush were removed?
If so, this has me leaning towards avoiding plastic surgery and pairing an M92/94/96 cartridge with an N110HE stylus, given the N110 is brushless and inherently narrower than the N111, as the potential alternate back-up to the N97LT that I have already.
Cheers
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ignoramustot
Active Member
Now I just need to persuade LP Gear / LP Tunes to ship one of these outside the US ...
N110HE JICO stylus replacement for Shure N110HE stylus - For US Sale Only
Or stump up for their Vivídline alternative
www.lpgear.com
Anyone have experience with either of those?
I recall the JICO version of the N111HE being a common recommendation earlier in this thread, so I assume the JICO version of the N97LT would be similarly good. (Out of stock at JICO in Japan, BTW).
N110HE JICO stylus replacement for Shure N110HE stylus - For US Sale Only
Or stump up for their Vivídline alternative
LP Gear replacement for Shure N97LT stylus
Check out the deal on LP Gear replacement for Shure N97LT stylus at LP Gear
Anyone have experience with either of those?
I recall the JICO version of the N111HE being a common recommendation earlier in this thread, so I assume the JICO version of the N97LT would be similarly good. (Out of stock at JICO in Japan, BTW).
Or, find an AK volunteer in the U.S. to buy one and arrange shipping to you. Kind of a mail in pony express
It was before the pandemic and I can't recall in more detail unfortunately. Though IIRC, it was an issue with the turntable - I don't recall have the same problem with the wings of the body when mounted in another P-Mount table I had (probably my Denon DP-7F), so it may have been a compatibility issue with the tonearm on the SL-7.
lini
just me...
To me it would seem, that Jico nowadays would preferably do business via area-specific distributors and authorised vendors. So LPGear probably simply isn't allowed to sell Jico needles to customers in Australia. So if you don't have anyone in the US (or alternatively in Europe, so you could get the E007404 from DaCapo instead...), who could serve as a middleman for you, you'd probably best contact Jico's Australian distributor (should be Oto Audio Distribution in Melbourne) and ask for advice, where to order the E007404.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
ignoramustot
Active Member
thanks Manfred.
As it so happens I swapped messages with Ari of Oto Audio a couple of weeks ago, so we're already in contact.
Something might happen on that front once my bank balance and melted credit card recover from my very impulsive run of other styli/cart splurges in recent months.
The T4P items in that splurge:
- Pickering XSP/3003 (MM) unused NOS NIB including its unused D3000 Stereohedron stylus;
- Pickering TL-3S (MI) with custom rebuilt stylus: There's a good "learning" story about my inexperience on this one: I found it cheap in what was advertised as "good" condition with its original DTL-3s Stereohedron stylus, but it was found to have its stylus worn flat and the suspension rotting apart. This was patiently and beautifully rebuilt by Joseph Long
.- Pickering TL-2S with DTL-2S stylus, both looking unused or barely used (MI)
- ADC PSX-40 cart with low-mileage PSX-30 stylus (MI) (gets a lot of love around here, I noticed)
- Sumiko Blue Point original T4P version, aka "Blue Point No.1", that looks in very good condition (high output MC) (likewise, has quite a reputation, and being HOMC I can use it into the MM inputs on my Sansui AU-555A and AU-7900 amps)
- Goldring D938ED elliptical replacement stylus NOS NIB for my Technics EP-202ED (MM) so I can bring my SL-7's original cart back into service. (I have not yet found any info on who actually made this but it's in the original Goldring box and seems unused, and it was a lot cheaper than forking out for a used original 202 ED stylus or a new JICO or VividLine P202 replacement.)
- Audio-Technica LS580/LT with its original ATN122LP linear contact stylus, both NOS NIB. (That one's quite rare, I think?)
I haven't actually tried using any of the above yet, I am embarrassed to admit. I have learned the lesson that, once the cart/stylus bug has bitten, buying the darn things is the easy part; it's harder to make time to install them and listen to them with proper attention!
So you can see the Shure Realistic RXT6 and the N97LT stylus have quite a queue in front of them before they get a run on the SL-7, and I am not chasing another Shure cart or stylus with any urgency at the moment....
I will try to make time this week to replace the current AT81/ATN3472SE combo on the SL-7 with one of the above. With that embarrassment of vintage cart/stylus riches, I'm not quite sure which one to listen to next, but the beauty of T4P is the ease in swapping without the hassle of alignment, etc.
Anyone have suggestions on which one of the above you would start with?
Cheers and thanks to all for their kind suggestions and willingness to help me learn.
Rob
specialcase
i really have no idea
I know what I’d start with, one of the Pickerings. Either the XSP or the TL-3S. I’m sure that ADC won’t disappoint, but my first date would be with a Pickering.thanks Manfred.
As it so happens I swapped messages with Ari of Oto Audio a couple of weeks ago, so we're already in contact.
Something might happen on that front once my bank balance and melted credit card recover from my very impulsive run of other styli/cart splurges in recent months.
The T4P items in that splurge:
- Pickering XSP/3003 (MM) unused NOS NIB including its unused D3000 Stereohedron stylus;
- Pickering TL-3S (MI) with custom rebuilt stylus: There's a good "learning" story about my inexperience on this one: I found it cheap in what was advertised as "good" condition with its original DTL-3s Stereohedron stylus, but it was found to have its stylus worn flat and the suspension rotting apart. This was patiently and beautifully rebuilt by Joseph Long
- Pickering TL-2S with DTL-2S stylus, both looking unused or barely used (MI)
- ADC PSX-40 cart with low-mileage PSX-30 stylus (MI) (gets a lot of love around here, I noticed)
- Sumiko Blue Point original T4P version, aka "Blue Point No.1", that looks in very good condition (high output MC) (likewise, has quite a reputation, and being HOMC I can use it into the MM inputs on my Sansui AU-555A and AU-7900 amps)
- Goldring D938ED elliptical replacement stylus NOS NIB for my Technics EP-202ED (MM) so I can bring my SL-7's original cart back into service. (I have not yet found any info on who actually made this but it's in the original Goldring box and seems unused, and it was a lot cheaper than forking out for a used original 202 ED stylus or a new JICO or VividLine P202 replacement.)
- Audio-Technica LS580/LT with its original ATN122LP linear contact stylus, both NOS NIB. (That one's quite rare, I think?)
I haven't actually tried using any of the above yet, I am embarrassed to admit. I have learned the lesson that, once the cart/stylus bug has bitten, buying the darn things is the easy part; it's harder to make time to install them and listen to them with proper attention!
So you can see the Shure Realistic RXT6 and the N97LT stylus have quite a queue in front of them before they get a run on the SL-7, and I am not chasing another Shure cart or stylus with any urgency at the moment....
I will try to make time this week to replace the current AT81/ATN3472SE combo on the SL-7 with one of the above. With that embarrassment of vintage cart/stylus riches, I'm not quite sure which one to listen to next, but the beauty of T4P is the ease in swapping without the hassle of alignment, etc.
Anyone have suggestions on which one of the above you would start with?
Cheers and thanks to all for their kind suggestions and willingness to help me learn.
Rob
lini
just me...
There has been a bit of a connection between Goldring and Nagaoka for a long time already, so that needle might have been made by Nagaoka.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
Bourbon
Drinkin' and dreamin'
Yep. This is where I'd start as well. I don't have those particular carts, but I do have a couple of Pickering XL-33Us (Stereohedron), and they're two of my finest sounding cartridges.
specialcase
i really have no idea
I’m not certain, but the XL-33U may be the private label equivalent of a TL-3S. They’re good, that I do know. I have one I run with either a DTL-2E stylus or a D-750 stylus and it sounds very fine indeed. No doubt a Stereohedron extends the refinement in playback. Be cool to hear one someday.