Things to specify to an electrician for dedicated circuits?
- Thread starter aim9
- Start date
ByteWrangler
Active Member
20A-rated 12 Ga wire will cost a few bucks more than 15A-rated 14 Ga, but little or nothing additional for labor; peanuts in the context of a $500 job. You've already spent $100 for special receptacles; spend a dozen or two more.
Also, if those hospital-grade receptacles are 20A (one of the slots is shaped like a sideways 'T'), they shouldn't be put on a 15A circuit anyway.
If it's a very long run from recept to panel, consider 10-Ga wire, otherwise: 20A circuits, 12-Ga wire, end of story.
Clay - you sound like a dream landlord if you're willing to go the extra cost and effort for what sounds like sensational infrastructure on your rental property, but even if you can cram 10-Ga wire under those screws doesn't mean you should. Most of the receptacles I've seen are rated for use only with 12 or 14-ga wire. Having to force the screws out further suggests that those are in that category. "Rated" means "meets code", which means "legal".
Also, if those hospital-grade receptacles are 20A (one of the slots is shaped like a sideways 'T'), they shouldn't be put on a 15A circuit anyway.
If it's a very long run from recept to panel, consider 10-Ga wire, otherwise: 20A circuits, 12-Ga wire, end of story.
Clay - you sound like a dream landlord if you're willing to go the extra cost and effort for what sounds like sensational infrastructure on your rental property, but even if you can cram 10-Ga wire under those screws doesn't mean you should. Most of the receptacles I've seen are rated for use only with 12 or 14-ga wire. Having to force the screws out further suggests that those are in that category. "Rated" means "meets code", which means "legal".
j3brow
Active Member
sooooo worth it!
I just had 3 dedicated lines, 20amp, installed yesterday. WOW. i wish i had done this A LOT sooner. The advice extolled here is on the money. 10 gauge 20amp all the way. all lines on the same leg/phase at the breaker box, preferably, on the leg with the least amount of noisy appliances. good move going with the upgraded outlets, i went with the blue FIM outlets.
I just had 3 dedicated lines, 20amp, installed yesterday. WOW. i wish i had done this A LOT sooner. The advice extolled here is on the money. 10 gauge 20amp all the way. all lines on the same leg/phase at the breaker box, preferably, on the leg with the least amount of noisy appliances. good move going with the upgraded outlets, i went with the blue FIM outlets.
vintage_tube
Vacuum Tube Passion
No disagreement there -- Less than 100 foot run, 10awg is overkill and the wall socket screws do not accomodate solid 10awg with any authority -- 10awg is big wire -- go to a hardware store and grab a socket from another shelf in the store and walk over to the cables -- imagine trying to get that 10awg on a socket screw. Not easy & 12awg is sufficient.
Well, I probably misunderstood his A-gon thing, as it said it was a replacement for a 15 or 20 amp outlet, but I guess he was referring to being used on a 20 amp circuit itself, not 15. Oh well, I guess this seals the deal then, they'll have to be 3 20A instead of 15A
(search for Porter Ports on A-gon if you want to take a look at them, they do have that horizontal slot from the pictures).Now, when the electrician looked at the electrical panel, he somewhat chuckled to himself because of its age (original from when the place was built in the 70s). Would a new panel be required at all, or would it provide any improvement in sound quality, assuming there isn't anything 'technically' or 'functionally' wrong with the existing one other than it being a bit outdated? He quoted me around $1k just to replace the panel, and I really don't want to do that unless for whatever reason there would be dramatic audible improvements (he also said that unless there was massive corrosion, there wouldn't be any real reason to upgrade it for sound improvement). Thanks again to everyone for your input in this thread, I really appreciate it!
vintage_tube
Vacuum Tube Passion
If they chuckle -- it's a precurser to getting you prepared for a larger than necessary bill.:yes:
It doesn't hurt to get an estimate from another electrician --
KingBubba
"Too Much Stuff"
The issue with your panel will be: are there still open slots available: are there enough slots available; and are there still available breakers for that type/brand of panel. The rest of the issue is finding a path for the wire routing. It sounds like your outlets are 20 amp receptacles so you are committed at this point. The rating should be stamped on the receptacles themselves, but if not the sideways slot for the 20 amp plug is the giveaway.
Gregory
Soundco Kid
In the townhouse where we're currently living, there's one electrical circuit in the main living area where the computers are located, and as we found out, the Mc rack is also on that circuit. One day we were vacuuming and the breaker tripped, taking down the Mc audio system, the computers (on UPS boxes), and the clocks. So a separate Mc circuit is a GOOD idea. Wire one for your office/computers while you're at it.
Also suggest to dump this white paper to your printer and look it over:
http://www.surgex.com/pdf/PowerGround.pdf
-Gregory
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beerdraft
Active Member
Hey Aim9, I just ran three dedicated lines with Shunyata cryo treated receptacles. I got my specs directly from shunyata. Run 10 awg wire for sure. My bill to the electrician was $650 for 80 foot runs times 3. The amps need to be on the same leg and the sources need to be on the opposite leg, all out of the same panel. Notice, my thought on same leg was same side in panel but my electrician informed me that isn't the case, the leg alternates sides so everyother breaker on the same side is on the same leg, confusing but I'm sure your electrician knows. So same leg and same side of the panel in my case isn't the same thing. Also make sure the three runs of wire are the same length, this will help to eliminate a ground loop. We ordered 250' and cut them in 3 pieces exactly the same length since I needed about 80 feet. If you have excess just leave it on and up in the cieling or what ever you have to do, keep them the same length.
I accidentaly plugged one of my amps into the old non dedicated circuit and was wondering why the right channel wasn't matching up, I started playing with speaker placement not knowing that I was on the wrong circuit, I just couldn't get it right so I went and did some chores for the wife. When I came back down, I noticed I was in the wrong outlet and changed it, put the speakers back where they were and it was fine. There is a difference atleast in my system with the 20 amp dedicated and shunyata outlet.
beerdraft
I accidentaly plugged one of my amps into the old non dedicated circuit and was wondering why the right channel wasn't matching up, I started playing with speaker placement not knowing that I was on the wrong circuit, I just couldn't get it right so I went and did some chores for the wife. When I came back down, I noticed I was in the wrong outlet and changed it, put the speakers back where they were and it was fine. There is a difference atleast in my system with the 20 amp dedicated and shunyata outlet.
beerdraft
whoaru99
Epic Member
Another potential issue with using 10ga is that someone could get the impression it's OK to install a 30A breaker on the circuit.
As far as the wire is concerned, that would be OK. But, afaik, 30A circuits violate code for general lighting circuits - under which, 15A or 20A receptacles fall.
As far as the wire is concerned, that would be OK. But, afaik, 30A circuits violate code for general lighting circuits - under which, 15A or 20A receptacles fall.
ByteWrangler
Active Member
Rock 'n' Roll!
Then wire them as 220 V and quadruple your power. 
"It goes to 16!" Just kidding, of course... don't really try this!
Good point. I suppose the electrician could tag 10-Ga wires used this way with "20A Max!" in the panel.
Methinks you're right about protecting general lighting and receptacle circuits with a 30A breaker. Bubba?
KingBubba
"Too Much Stuff"
As long as the panel is properly marked "receptacle" for the breakers used, there should be no reason for 10 ga. wire to be mistaken for anything other than what it is. Many large building installations use 10 ga. wire for receptacles due to the long distances. Electricians are used to seeing it. Always label your panel well or keep a map of what breaker feed what device; then all doubt is dispelled.
Except the code kind of issue which specifically prohibits this. Its a violation if there's only one receptacle on the circuit.
What code is this? Its actually 10/15A circuit as you calculate at 180VA/receptacle. I'm guessing you didn't serve an apprenticeship?
KingBubba
"Too Much Stuff"
Then the codes have changed from way back when, when I rewired my house and others. I was following national code at the time and it allowed only six receptacles or a total of ten light fixtures per circuit. If what your saying is that it is out of code to put one receptacle on a circuit, I find that puzzling. How do you deal with dedicated circuits for appliances such as air conditioners etc.?
MP, I'm a stage electrician by trade and so I am not a licensed apprentice or master. I have had a good bit of experience with rewiring old houses but that was almost thirty years ago. Things may have changed but I would have assumed that the basics remained the same. I certainly can not rattle code off the top of my head.
MP, I'm a stage electrician by trade and so I am not a licensed apprentice or master. I have had a good bit of experience with rewiring old houses but that was almost thirty years ago. Things may have changed but I would have assumed that the basics remained the same. I certainly can not rattle code off the top of my head.
whoaru99
Epic Member
Isn't the 180VA thing specific to commercial installations? For residential there is no limit to the number of receptacles per circuit in the NEC, afaik.
None the less, it's a good rule to follow for residential too - as a max or min depending on how you look at it.
whoaru99
Epic Member
Yes, but isn't that strictly interpreted as one receptacle? Meaning, the (typical) duplex receptacle takes care of that scenario, afaik.
Yes and no. It gets somewhat "tricky." You can calculate lighting load/square foot if they're on the same circuit. We generally don't do that. If a breaker trips, it's nice to still have lights. Even if you went that route, its 3VA/square foot for lighting ONLY, then derate because of the receptacles. Put the receptacles on their own circuit and then 10 max per 15A circuit (180VA each). As to whether a 15A duplex qualifies as acceptable on a 20A circuit, not as I recall but it may. Memory says more than one device, but I'm not sure on that one. I'd have to look it up when I have more time.